Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #474072

Re: Why the Medium Matters.

From	Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Why the Medium Matters.
Date	2018-10-04 15:25 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<pp5bcs$1na6$2@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(11 earlier) <22atD.582386$0v.322243@fx07.am4> <pp45tt$1keb$1@gioia.aioe.org> <6DktD.743693$PJ7.349237@fx01.am4> <pp4ohs$kgt$1@gioia.aioe.org> <b35156b3-71b2-47ed-a329-3f820400f432@googlegroups.com>

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kenseto <setoken@att.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 6:03:43 AM UTC-4, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>> Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 04/10/2018 05:45, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>> Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/10/2018 20:53, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> I don’t have any idea why you think a one way speed measurement result is
>>>>>> inconsistent with the speed of light being the same in all frames of
>>>>>> reference.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Here is a simple experiment that has been done:
>>>>>> 1. Identify a process that emits equal flashes of light in opposite
>>>>>> directions from a common trigger event.
>>>>>> 2. Perform a test where the time of flight of both light signals is
>>>>>> measured when the source is at rest. Verify that in each and every case,
>>>>>> the times of flight of the oppositely directed signals is equal.
>>> 
>>> Let's do the experiment your way then Mr.Bodkin.
>>> We put a light with a clock in the middle of a railway carriage,
>> 
>> No, Keith, let’s not do a mental experiment. Let’s refer to a REAL
>> experiment, one that has already been done.  Furthermore, let us not make
>> any conclusions based on hypothetical assumptions about what you or I
>> *think* is the reasonable thing to happen. Instead, we should look at the
>> actual experiment conducted and see what *actually* happened, no matter how
>> unreasonable you or I think that outcome would be. 
>> 
>>> and flash the light on at t = t0
>>> 
>>> We have photocells and clocks at the front and rear of the carriage
>>> to measure when the light arrived at the front (t=t1 say) and at the
>>> back (t=t2)
>>> 
>>> With the rail carriage stationary we turn on the light and
>>> discover that indeed t1 = t2, as you say Mr.Bodkin
>>> 
>>>>>> 3. Now repeat the same measurement when the same source is traveling at a
>>>>>> significant speed,
>>> 
>>> Right. I start the train moving and discover that once again t1 = t2,
>>> and that this applies whatever the speed of the train, and whenever i
>>> turn the light on, i.e. for all values of t0
>>> 
>>>>>> such that the flash is triggered when the source passes
>>>>>> the center of the detecting apparatus. See if the times of flight of the
>>>>>> two flashes are now different (your expectation), or still identical
>>>>>> (the >>> expectation of relativity).
>>> 
>>> I can assure you that "My expectation" is that t1 = t2 whatever the 
>>> speed of the train, Mr.Bodkin
>>> 
>>>>>> Since you are looking at the same process from the same source from two
>>>>>> different reference frames,
>>> 
>>> BUT YOU ARE NOT LOOKING AT IT FROM DIFFERENT REFERENCE FRAMES.
>>> From any frame of reference in which the train is moving,
>>> the front of the railway carriage is moving away from the
>>> point where the light was emitted, and the back of the train
>>> is moving towards the point where the light was emitted.
>> 
>> The only way to determine the speed of light relative to me is for ME to
>> MEASURE that speed. 
>> You can calculate a CLOSING speed between me and the light in the frame of
>> the train, but then you are making the assumption that this closing speed
>> is the same as the speed of light that I would measure in my frame. That is
>> an incorrect assumption. Closing speed is not frame-independent. 
> 
> If the speed of light is measured to be isotropic in the train then there
> is no different closing speeds exist in the train. 

Bullshit. Stop using terms you don’t know the meaning of. 

> The track observer erroneously assumes that the closing speeds of light
> in the train (in the track frame) are different.....these fictitious
> closing speeds are not measurable and do not exist. 
> 
> What this mean is that if you claim the speed of light is isotropic in
> all frames then you cannot turn around and make the contradictory claim
> that light have different closing speeds. The track observer must use the
> LT to show that there is no different closing speeds of light in the
> train and thus agree with the train observer’s measurement.
> 
>> 
>> This kind of false assumptions being made is exactly why referring to an
>> *actual* experiment’s results and NOT a mental experiment is so important. 
>> 
>>> 
>>> So
>>> the forward traveling light must travel a distance
>>> = half the length of carriage + v(t1-t0)
>>> and
>>> the backward traveling light travels must travel a distance
>>> = half the length of carriage - v(t2-t0)
>>> 
>>> So although t2 IS ALWAYS EQUAL TO t1 (as you say Bodkin),
>>> the distances traveled by the forward and backward light
>>> can only be equal in the frame of reference in which v=0
>>> In any other frame the distance traveled by the forward light
>>> is greater than the distance traveled by the backward light,
>>> but the time for the journeys t1-t0, and t2-t0 are equal,
>>> AND THUS THE SPEED OF THE FORWARD BEAM IS GREATER THAN THE
>>> SPEED OF THE BACKWARD BEAM.
>>> 
>>>>>> this is a clear test of the hypothesis.
>>> 
>>> This is entirely within the expectation of my hypothesis,
>>> Mr Bodkin.
>>> It's SR which claims the speed of light is constant eh!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> keith stein
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>> This experiment has already been done.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> If YOU have access to a laboratory do please try the following
>>>>> experiment, Mr.Bodkin:
>>>>> 
>>>>> A                   B
>>>>> light-----><--------L---------->         <--YOU v m/s
>>>>> tA                  tB
>>>>> 
>>>>> Speed of light in lab = Distance/Time = L/(tB-tA) = c m/s
>>>>> 
>>>>> Now walk towards B from the right at v m/s
>>>>> Note that in your frame of reference the point B is moving,
>>>>> and therefore the light travels an extra distance = v(tB-tA) m,
>>>>> which is the distance traveled by B as the light travels from A to B
>>>>> 
>>>>> Speed of light relative to YOU = (L + v(tB-tA)) / (tB-tA) m/s
>>>>> = (c + v) m/s
>>>> 
>>>> This is not a measurement. This is a hypothetical calculation that is based
>>>> on an assumption. This assumption is wrong. There are several ways to
>>>> describe this incorrect assumption.
>>>> 
>>>> One way to describe it is that you are trying to transform the velocity of
>>>> the light signal from the lab frame to my frame and you are assuming that
>>>> the way to to that is u’ = u + v. This is incorrect.
>>>> 
>>>> Another way to describe it is to say that the times tA and tB are the same
>>>> for me as they are in the lab. This is also incorrect.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> tA is the time when the light beam passes A as recorded by a clock at A
>>> tB is the time when the light beam passes B as recorded by a clock at B
>> 
>> Clocks at rest in WHICH FRAME? 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Since we know exactly which clocks are being referred to (think of them
>>> as digitally displayed times in seconds), they MUST BE THE SAME FOR ALL
>>> OBSERVERS eh!
>> 
>> No, and this is exactly the point. Clocks at rest and synchronized at A and
>> B in one frame will NOT be synchronized in any other frame. So you are
>> ASSUMING that all that’s needed to record times is to specify the clock’s
>> location, and that should be sufficient for any observer. That is an
>> incorrect assumption. A pair of clocks in different locations must also be
>> synchronized, and synchronization is frame dependent. You can synchronize
>> those two clocks in your frame and they will continue to be synchronized in
>> your frame and they will provide the tA and tB that are appropriate for
>> your frame. 
>> 
>> However those two clocks are NOT synchronized in my frame, and so those
>> times tA and tB don’t work in my frame. I need a pair of clocks at A and B
>> that are synchronized in MY frame. These will provide two DIFFERENT times
>> tA’ and tB’ from the clocks that are synched in my frame. This is what I
>> meant when I was saying that the times tA and tB are not the same times for
>> me. 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Your “experiment” draws incorrect conclusions from incorrect assumptions.
>>>> 
>>>> A real experiment is like the one I described. The results of this real
>>>> experiment are confounding to you, I know. But real experimental results
>>>> trump theoretical hypotheses, every single time.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> SO that experiment trumps Einstein's theoretical hypothesis that
>>>>> the speed of light is constant for all observers eh!
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Both your experiment, and my experiment draw the same
>>> conclusion Mr.Bodkin. THE SPEED OF LIGHT IS NOT CONSTANT.
>> 
>> You have not looked at the experimental result I mentioned. 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> keith stein
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
> 



-- 
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Thread

Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 09:47 +0100
  Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-02 04:20 -0700
    Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:21 +0100
      Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-02 06:02 -0700
        Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 14:12 +0100
  Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-02 12:39 +0000
    Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 14:08 +0100
      Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-07 08:40 -0500
        Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-07 07:22 -0700
          Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-07 14:42 +0000
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-07 17:41 -0700
  Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 13:19 +0000
    Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-02 06:56 -0700
      Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 14:00 +0000
        Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-02 07:12 -0700
          Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-02 07:14 -0700
        Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-02 07:12 -0700
          Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 14:15 +0000
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-02 08:49 -0700
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-02 13:31 -0700
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-03 06:06 -0700
              Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-03 06:09 -0700
              Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 14:05 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-03 07:14 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 15:38 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-03 16:43 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-03 08:51 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 16:06 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-03 09:17 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-04 07:24 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 15:25 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-04 08:53 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 19:22 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-04 14:38 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-04 21:47 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 22:03 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 08:30 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-05 04:26 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 15:01 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-06 08:11 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-06 08:32 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 20:20 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-07 07:19 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 19:19 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 01:00 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-04 21:40 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-03 16:45 +0000
          Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-02 17:10 +0100
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-02 09:15 -0700
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-02 09:18 -0700
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-03 06:41 -0700
              Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 19:06 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-04 07:52 -0700
      Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Hilton Packett <wod@wcotahr.ce> - 2018-10-02 20:28 +0000
        Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-10-03 03:32 +0200
          Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 05:18 +0100
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-03 05:06 +0000
              Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 10:51 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 09:58 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-03 03:19 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 12:28 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-03 12:44 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-03 05:57 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 14:05 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-03 09:16 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 19:36 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-03 18:59 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 19:53 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 21:56 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 04:45 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-04 00:06 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 09:58 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-04 02:46 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 10:03 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-04 03:31 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 12:21 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 11:49 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-04 05:42 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 14:46 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 15:25 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-04 09:41 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 18:26 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-04 11:45 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 07:15 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 06:39 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-05 00:31 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 06:53 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 08:51 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-05 00:58 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 12:17 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 14:54 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-06 08:10 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 19:17 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 20:20 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 05:37 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 09:17 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-07 04:57 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-07 04:59 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-07 05:39 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 20:36 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-06 22:59 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-04 07:13 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 15:25 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-04 09:00 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-03 12:33 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-03 05:38 -0700
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 11:30 +0100
          Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-03 06:18 -0700
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-03 13:41 +0000
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-03 20:01 +0000
          Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-03 20:00 +0000
  Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-04 14:28 -0400
    Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 06:32 +0100
      Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 06:44 +0000
        Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 09:03 +0100
      Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-07 08:59 -0500
        Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-07 07:33 -0700
        Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-07 16:37 +0200
          Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-08 12:30 -0500
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tc> - 2018-10-08 17:41 +0000
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-08 20:00 +0200
              Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-08 22:12 -0500
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 23:39 -0400
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-08 20:46 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-09 13:30 -0500
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-15 22:21 +0200
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 21:14 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-15 22:10 -0500
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-16 08:50 +0200
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-16 18:43 -0500
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-17 03:30 +0200
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 22:47 -0400
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-15 22:07 -0500
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-15 22:14 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-16 08:39 +0200
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-16 05:03 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 21:08 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-16 18:50 -0500
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-17 03:31 +0200
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-17 06:28 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-10-17 13:02 -0400
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-17 18:47 +0100
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-19 19:15 +0000
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-22 11:44 -0500
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-16 23:11 +0200
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-16 18:41 -0500
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-22 13:04 -0700
            Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-09 06:06 -0700
              Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-09 08:45 -0500
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-09 07:27 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-09 07:40 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-09 07:43 -0700
                Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-10 07:08 -0700
              Re: Why the *Medium* Matters. Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tc> - 2018-10-09 14:04 +0000
  Another Reason "Why the *Medium* Matters." Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 19:13 +0100

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