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Groups > sci.physics > #693523
| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics |
| Subject | Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese |
| Date | 2018-07-10 23:29 +0000 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <pi3fh3$vaq$2@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink) |
| References | (13 earlier) <pi24fa$e95$1@gioia.aioe.org> <62b7dbe5-9902-4861-95dc-021b93067134@googlegroups.com> <pi2r74$1rl5$1@gioia.aioe.org> <pi2rcg$1s2l$1@gioia.aioe.org> <1b9e4691-243f-4732-acb5-cdc5e761a57d@googlegroups.com> |
<poraty6@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 8:45:57 PM UTC+3, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>> Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <poraty6@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 2:14:56 PM UTC+3, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>> <poraty6@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 1:09:48 PM UTC+3, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>> <poraty6@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 7:19:06 AM UTC+3, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <poraty6@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 6:05:15 AM UTC+3, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> <poraty6@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 1:17:36 AM UTC+3, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <poraty6@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 4:15:50 PM UTC+3, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <poraty6@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 1:20:04 PM UTC+3, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <poraty6@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> space has not curvature and no 'schmervature ''
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> space is nothing and has no properties whatsoever
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EXCEPT - HOSTONG MASS !!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I m so happy for you that God whispered this information to you, a prophet,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that you need no experimental test to know that it is true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while mass is the main 'hero' of physics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it has some unknown yet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sub particles -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -THAT MOVE 'NATURALLY' IN CURVED LINES !!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you want to get a little hint for it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 'force lines of a magnet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michel Faraday was the first one to start revealing them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by his famous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> magnet lines force makers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in that ingenious experiment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he enabled us the first time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to literally ** see*; them/get a hint/get a new idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about that big unknown yet WORLD/'continent '''
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that was just the first only tangible experiment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indirectly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we can more than guess about it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by knowing about gravitation facts !!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which points/locations it exist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in which points it does not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (stronger and weaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more dense and less dense
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not at all etc. )!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =====> > TIA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Y.Porat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Odd Bodkin Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =======================(:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thank you for your interest in me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you envy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I explained things quite a few times
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it seems that you didn't follow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I asked In that ng
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a question
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is based on **observations**
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bus a little need for the gray stuff in our skulls
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not a good idea. Just thinking about things without reference to data is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a fool s prescription. Your description of space is not consistent with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ====================I thought once that you are at least a gentleman...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you what to change my idea about you ??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who is the fool ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is how a real scientist talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a fish market merchant talk ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now genius smarty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to ask you a little question :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we realize that there is some connection between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mass and forces
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now my question to you as a great scalar''
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is more reasonable to you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forces are creating masses ??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> masses are creating forces ??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Odd Bodkin Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>>>>>>>>>>>> ==================(:-) !!!
>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither ??
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> so I will ask it differently
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wha1
>>>>>>>>>>>> t is more likely :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> conglomeration of masses
>>>>>>>>>>>> are creating forces
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> conglomeration of forces
>>>>>>>>>>>> or any forces
>>>>>>>>>>>> are/is creating conglomeration of masses ??
>>>>>>>>>>>> =====TIA
>>>>>>>>>>>> Y.Porat
>>>>>>>>>>>> ======================> >
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You re still missing pieces. And your still living in classical Newtonian
>>>>>>>>>>> physics.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Odd Bodkin Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>>>>>>>>>> ==============wrong !!
>>>>>>>>>> you still don't get my
>>>>>>>>>> Y Circlon ad y circlon mechanism !!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> they circlon
>>>>>>>>>> is a very basic particle
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> MOVES NATURALLY IN A CURVED LINE !
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> not because f en curved space
>>>>>>>>>> but that is how' it was born ''
>>>>>>>>>> ie
>>>>>>>>>> a new basic assumption !!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> not like Newton that claims ,movement in a straight line !!!
>>>>>>>>>> now you can ask:
>>>>>>>>>> there is still movement in a straight line
>>>>>>>>>> so how come ??
>>>>>>>>>> I say
>>>>>>>>>> no contradiction :
>>>>>>>>>> the circlon moves I n a closed o not closed circular
>>>>>>>>>> path
>>>>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>>>>> its *center POINT* of movement -can move
>>>>>>>>>> in a straight line !!
>>>>>>>>>> ie
>>>>>>>>>> ACOMPOSITE MOVEMENT !!
>>>>>>>>>> difficult for a mathematician ??
>>>>>>>>>> but not difficult for a creative experienced mind
>>>>>>>>>> the through is that I didn't get it at once
>>>>>>>>>> it took me years of thinking
>>>>>>>>>> as a 3D experienced engineer
>>>>>>>>>> while I say
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't think about it all along the day...
>>>>>>>>>> of those years
>>>>>>>>>> but from time to time at my free time
>>>>>>>>>> if not buddy in other troubles of life &.
>>>>>>>>>> (that are not missing me as an old goat of 80 years
>>>>>>>>>> that is still walking about 8 km a day..
>>>>>>>>>> with his head on his shoulders (:-)
>>>>>>>>>> and thinking about anything in our troubles world &
>>>>>>>>>> yet no ne
>>>>>>>>>> can take away from me
>>>>>>>>>> my unprecedented achievements
>>>>>>>>>> because my good teachers thought me
>>>>>>>>>> DONT BE A PARROT !!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> it is not my say
>>>>>>>>>> it is a say of one of my good teachers !!
>>>>>>>>>> and that was
>>>>>>>>>> how I behaved while designing
>>>>>>>>>> about 70 bridges (I forgot hoe many ==many of them with
>>>>>>>>>> unprecedented innovations !!
>>>>>>>>>> not only in physics
>>>>>>>>>> that I invested in
>>>>>>>>>> studying physics may years as well
>>>>>>>>>> including writing a book !!
>>>>>>>>>> including learning from people even
>>>>>>>>>> in that ng as well !!
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> if not clear
>>>>>>>>>> just ask more
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> None of the above has anything to do with your weird claim that space has
>>>>>>>>> no physical properties except hosting mass, a claim you have not
>>>>>>>>> substantiated with data.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ================("-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> substantiated with data ???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if space is empty
>>>>>>>> what does it mean empty ???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It doesn t mean what you think it means. It means there is a volume with no
>>>>>>> persistent matter within it. That s all.
>>>>>> ========no persistent matter ?
>>>>>> so what else ?? absolute nothing ??
>>>>>
>>>>> Empty space is not absolute nothing. That is not what the term means. You
>>>>> are assigning the wrong words to it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> wHAT can absolute nothing - DO act
>>>>>> react ?????
>>>>>> in short as if it was not there at all !!???
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most of all, human words and human definitions of those words never dictate
>>>>>>> to nature
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ? so it is as if it was not said at all !!??
>>>>>> if so
>>>>>> why to say it
>>>>>> termine what it is by
>>>>>> ??
>>>>>
>>>>> I already told you. The words come AFTER observational data. The data tells
>>>>> you what it is, and THEN you choose right words to describe it. Not the
>>>>> other way around.
>>>>>
>>>>>> => observational data, and then and only then do we decide which of our human
>>>>>>> words we should use to describe it.
>>>>>>> ===better not to do it before opening our mouth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> empty is nothing
>>>>>>>> and no properties at all
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No sir. That is not what it means. Data first, then you choose the right
>>>>>>> words to describe what is suggested by the data.
>>>>>> ok
>>>>>> what is your data about empty space ??
>>>>>
>>>>> Not my data. Physicists’ data.
>>>>> Data having to do with length contraction, time dilation, frame dragging,
>>>>> gravitational lensing, Doppler shift, rapidity distributions, impedance of
>>>>> empty space, Shapiro delay, waves of empty space, and so on and on and on.
>>>>> Try reading.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ====
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the fact that ''you ' invented properties to space
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nobody invented the properties of space.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> did I suggested something Those properties
>>>>>> of empty space
>>>>>> quite the opposite
>>>>>> that is what I say all along
>>>>>> JUST FORGET ABOUT EMPTY SPACE
>>>>>> AS HAVING ANY PRASCTICAL EANING
>>>>>
>>>>> But why forget it when it has a crucial physical role? It does no good to
>>>>> try to invent reasons to ignore it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> in other words
>>>>>>
>>>>>> let s forget about empty space as something that means
>>>>>> something to physics
>>>>>> and ore important
>>>>>> le us look for something at does !! act
>>>>>> and really**makes the gravitation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DISCOVERED.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is not a prove
>>>>>>>> it is ''fitting facts''(manipulating ) to some thing that is nothing
>>>>>>>> more than a guess !!
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>> another thing to understand
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if energy is mass in motion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And again you have made a mistake. That is not the correct definition of
>>>>>>> energy. For example, do you know the meaning of potential energy?
>>>>>> ==================we are not with potential energy
>>>>>> that is obfuscation !!!
>>>>>
>>>> ===> Potential energy is a class of energy. It also has nothing to do with mass
>>>> ======
>>>> (:-)
>>>>
>>>> please give us the dimensions of
>>>> potential energy ...!!
>>>> ==============
>>>>
>>>>> in motion. Therefore it is simply wrong to say that energy (of any class)
>>>>> is mass in motion.
>>>>> ====
>>>> again
>>>> what are the physical dimensions of energy
>>>> ======
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If so,
>>>>>>> please share your recollection of the definition of that term.
>>>>>> ????
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the meaning of potential energy, if you can remember it?
>>>>>
>>>>> =========
>>>>>>>> that motion OF MASS must be &&.RECICLED !!!!!!
>>>>>>>> or else &.!!!!!
>>>>>>>> just guess what will be then
>>>>>>>> (if it will not be recycled ??!!
>>>> =======================d
>>>> Bod
>>>> YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE ABOVE crucial QUESTION !!
>>>> ==============================
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't want to spoon feed t that problem/point
>>>>>>>> I would like to here it from you !!
>>>>>>>> ====TIA
>>>>>>>> Y.Porat
>>>>>>>> =====================================
>>>>>>> ==================
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> another question that you dint answer :
>>>>
>>>> do you know
>>>> that ***curved space ''
>>>> does not apply -to say
>>>> the strong forces of protons/
>>>> neutrons -
>>>> in the nucleus
>>>> WHY ???!!!
>>>> ==
>>>> TIA
>>>> Y.Porat
>>>> ======================
>
> Bodkin
> did not answer that question
> why curved space
> does not apply to the strong forces
Yes I did.
>
> ==========================
>
>
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Potential energy is energy associated with position. It has units
>>> newtons*meters.
> ========
> Newton meter
> is good enough to make insert forces ???!!>
> any force ??? >
Any conservative force yes.
>
>> And the string force
> 9strng force ???
>
>
>
>
> is a force distinct from gravitation. Completely
>> different.
> ======================
> not aclear sentence !!!
It is to me.
>
> =====================
> and another question of mine
>
> CAN YOU TELL APPRIORY
> TO WHICH DIRECTION SPACE WILL CURVE ??!
Yes.
> =========
>
> 2
> why curved space
> does not apply to the strong forces ??
Because curved space is a theory of gravity only. It has nothing to do with
electromagnetic or weak or strong interactions.
>
> ======
> TIA
> Y.P
> ========================
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
--
Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
Back to sci.physics | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-08 23:08 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-09 10:20 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-09 06:03 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-09 13:15 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-09 10:09 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-09 22:17 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-09 15:36 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-09 16:43 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-09 16:47 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-07-11 10:54 -0500
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-11 09:32 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-11 21:59 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-11 23:48 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-09 16:38 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-09 17:24 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-09 18:20 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-10 03:05 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-09 21:00 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-10 04:19 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 00:50 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 02:22 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-10 10:09 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 03:58 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-10 11:14 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 07:59 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-10 17:43 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-10 17:45 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 12:33 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 16:23 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-10 23:29 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 16:50 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 18:18 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-11 03:36 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 23:48 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-11 00:17 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-11 09:39 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-11 09:39 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-11 05:42 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-11 12:51 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-11 08:25 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Rod Chesterson <invalid@example.com> - 2018-07-11 21:21 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-11 21:48 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-11 03:36 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 16:37 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-07-11 03:36 +0000
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese Dave Smith <invalid@example.com> - 2018-07-10 07:22 -0700
Re: SPACE IS NOT CURVED AND NOT ..there is something elese poraty6@gmail.com - 2018-07-10 07:46 -0700
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