Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google

From	"Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google
Date	2013-11-29 09:54 -0500
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
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On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 23:47:30 -0500, Elizabeth D. Rather  
<erather@forth.com> wrote:
> On 11/28/13 3:24 PM, Rod Pemberton wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 10:38:50 -0500, Andrew Haley
>> <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>> Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>> The HuffingtonPost article complains about costs per person being too
>> large in the US per person as compared to their lifetime.  According
>> to the article, those costs are the reason the US is an outlier.  You
>> understand that ObamaCare is *raising* costs per person, yes?  We're
>> going to be so far to the right we won't fit on the page!  LOL.  Did
>> you _intend_ to cite that article Andrew?
>>
>> See?  Costs go up: [links]
>
> Yeah, the conservative press has been preaching that for years. It's  
> only now that we're beginning to see actual figures.
>

... and so far they confirm what the conservative press has said.

>> 2) Despite the non-correlation with life expectancy, we have better
>> quality of health care.  If you live in the EU, would you go to
>> Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia and Latvia for health care? If you
>> live in the US, would you go to Canada or Mexico for health care?
>
> How do you define "better quality of health care" on a broad scale  
> *except* by looking at overall outcomes (in other words, life  
> expectancy)?

There are many factors more important to quality of health care than
life expectancy which has strong genetic and cultural components.
E.g., deaths due to hospital error, contraction of contagious, high risk
diseases while in the hospital, errors in prescriptions or procedures
or operations leading to additional surgeries or deaths, etc.

> The chart in question came from Organisation for Economic Co-operation  
> and Development (OECD), an international organization based in Paris.  
> The full report may be downloaded here: [link]
>
> A very similar study has been published by the World Health Organization  
> (WHO),  [link]
> Its findings cover more countries and are consistent with OECD's.

Do you consider both of them to be non-biased towards EU politics
and cultural beliefs given that they are both headquartered in the EU?
AISI, they both promote a strong pro-EU agenda in everything.  It's
somewhat anti-US.

>> 4) We have a large class of freeloaders who drive up costs.
>> Hospitals can't refuse care in the US like they can in other
>> countries (Canada, Japan).  Their care is primarily via the
>> emergency room instead of via scheduled doctor visits.  Those
>> higher costs of emergency room care are paid for by all of us.
>> ObamaCare rolls these freeloaders into the system and provides
>> all of them even more healthcare at our expense.
>
> I don't know much about Canada and Japan (although I have several  
> friends who live in Canada who prefer their health care system to
> ours by a wide margin).

I'm sure the guy who had to pull out his own rotting tooth didn't,
nor the women coming to the US to birth children, nor the women
coming to the US to have abortions.  They're all Canadians.

> But I'm curious about your definition of "freeloaders."

They were described in the snipped paragraph.

If you want a more of an economic definition, you can look up
"free rider".  See also "forced rider" for comparison.

> I've spent a good deal of time in England, France, and
> Belgium. I've been sick in all three places. Doctors treat anyone who
> seeks treatment, without charge, unlike here. People are forced to go to
> the emergency room in the US who don't have expensive health insurance.

Yet, Medicaid was most likely available to them, but they didn't have it.

> It is well-known in the medical community that people who are able to  
> seek treatment in early stages of disease (i.e., from a doc) will have a  
> better outcome at a much lower cost.

True, but when healthcare is available, e.g., work, Medicare, Medicaid,
etc, and someone doesn't go to the doctor is that a healthcare issue,
or a personal freedom?  I qualify that as a personal freedom.  What about
when someone could afford healthcare but doesn't?  Same thing.  What about
someone able to work but doesn't?  Same thing.  So, we're always going to
have people who are able to seek treatment, but don't, who could have
healthcare if they wanted to, but don't.

Your example only affects people who want treatment but can't get it,
because they aren't willing to pay for healthcare, or didn't sign up
for Medicaid, Medicare, etc.  We'd have to make it illegal for people
to not visit their doctors regularly to fix the issue you brought up
which was not being treated early enough.  What do you think about
that?  If everyone, except the poor who qualify for Medicaid, is forced
to pay for health insurance, why shouldn't everyone be forced to go
to the doctor under the same rationale?

>> 5) Some countries have higher rates of death which reduces total
>> costs of healthcare.  The EU has death rates twice as high as
>> the USA.  South Africa has very high rates of death.  Germany
>> is actually exporting elderly to other countries to lower their
>> healthcare costs.
>
> Death rates are 100% in all countries.

Death is final, yes.  However, death rates are not 100%.  Death rates
include the living, i.e., dead/living.  So, it's a function of the
population size and quantity of people dying.  If the population is
increasing, the death rate will decline even if the number of dying
stays relatively constant for a while.  If many people are dying now,
be it old age or young and violent/tragic, the death rate increases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortality_rate

> The question is, what is the average life span?

Why?

> I see 20 countries with longer average life spans than the US, many of  
> which are in the EU.

If you move US back to underneath Finland, the age variation is only
about four years for English speaking countries.  Lifespan is affected
by many things other than healthcare, like genetics, culture, work,
smoking, drinking, etc.

(See post to Andrew for more, not all inclusive.)

Rod Pemberton

Thread

OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-11-28 07:21 -0500
  Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-28 04:45 -0800
  Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-28 05:00 -0800
    Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 06:50 -0800
    Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-11-28 09:38 -0600
      Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-28 07:53 -1000
        Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 09:06 -0500
          Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-11-29 08:13 -0600
      Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-11-28 20:24 -0500
        Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-28 18:47 -1000
          Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-11-29 09:54 -0500
          Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-12-11 12:40 -0500
            Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-11 08:23 -1000
              Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-12-11 13:38 -0500
              Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-11 18:42 +0000
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-12 02:38 -0800
        Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-11-29 03:34 -0600
          Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-11-29 08:49 -0500
            Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-11-29 08:34 -0600
              Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-11-30 18:03 +0000
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-30 18:06 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-01 03:09 +0000
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-30 22:32 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-30 21:26 -1000
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-01 08:53 +0000
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-01 17:16 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-01 17:13 -0800
              Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-11-30 17:50 -0500
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-01 03:32 -0600
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-12-01 05:34 -0500
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-01 21:36 +0000
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 05:23 -0500
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-12-02 20:58 +0100
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 19:24 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-03 09:23 +0000
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 02:09 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 19:02 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 19:04 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 00:42 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-02 03:13 -0600
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 19:26 -0800
        Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-12-02 12:10 +0100
          Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-02 05:35 -0600
            Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-12-02 13:40 +0100
              Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 06:22 -0800
          Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-12-02 20:34 +0100
            Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 19:28 -0800
            Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-03 02:10 -0800
              Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-12-03 14:26 +0100
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-03 06:58 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-12-03 17:31 +0100
          Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 02:34 -0800
            Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-03 03:44 -0800
              Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 11:51 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 14:09 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 21:30 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2013-12-05 04:07 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <notagoodone@invalid.org.invalid> - 2013-12-11 17:05 +0000
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-12 02:40 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-03 12:39 -1000
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 21:32 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 02:07 -0800
                Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 21:35 -0800
        Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <notagoodone@invalid.org.invalid> - 2013-12-11 16:59 +0000
          Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-12 02:43 -0800
      Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-30 18:04 -0800
    Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-11-28 20:29 -0500
      Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 22:01 -0800
  Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-28 05:06 -0800
    Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 06:51 -0800
  Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-28 05:11 -0800
  Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 06:47 -0800
  Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google mhx@iae.nl - 2013-11-28 10:50 -0800
    Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-28 15:36 -0800
      Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-30 18:08 -0800
    Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-11-29 09:33 +0100
      Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-01 16:56 -1000
  Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-05 05:25 -0800
    Re: OT: ObamaCare vs. Google the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 22:04 -0800

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