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On 6/30/17 2:50 PM, Poutnik wrote:
> Dne 30/06/2017 v 21:28 benj napsal(a):
>> On 6/30/2017 4:52 AM, Poutnik wrote:
>>> Dne 30.6.2017 v 04:34 benj napsal(a):
>>>
>>>>>
>>>> What Odd fails to mention in his fantasy is that the days when
>>>> Physicists did physics and engineers did engineering ended with WWII.
>>>
>>> Such a statement is false, as I know many physicist doing physics
>>> and many engineers doing engineering.
>>
>> Pouter you did not carefully read what I said. Sure some engineers do
>> engineering and some physicists to physics, but that is not the point. I
>> didn't say that everything was reversed! But prior to WWII what you say
>> was largely the case. This is why when radar needed to invent the
>> magnitron it took physicists to do it because engineers simply did not
>> understand Maxwell to the level needed to do it. But Post WWII things
>> changed. Physicists mostly gave up on Maxwell as being "classic" and old
>> while engineers were all trained extensively in EM. The result of course
>> is that EM research switched from physics to Engineering. Research and
>> advances coming form engineers and their institutions rather than from
>> physics and theirs. Same in Solid State physics.
> 
> But this is nothing other than misunderstood role
> of science and engineering. Scientists know it well,
> but physicists have frequent trouble in that.
> 
> At EM, there is scientific research and engineering research.
> The scientific research is mostly done,
> at least at fields interesting for engineers.
> 
> And at solid state physics, physical research is very active there.
> 
>>
>>> This does not mean a physicist cannot become engineer nor vice versa,
>>> doing both. But it is rather exception than rule
>>> and they are rarely very good in both domains.
>>
>> Obviously engineers mostly do engineering and physicists, physics but it
>> is the exceptions that publish the advances and that is the question
>> here. OF course an experimental physicist needs to be good in both
>> physics and engineering to build and understand experiments that
>> actually work and are credible. Theoretical physicists, on the other
>> hand only need to be good at math and have a very active fantasy life.
>> Logical thinking is not required and they do not need to understand how
>> a light switch works.
>>
> Many engineers have very vague idea what is theoretica physics about
> and what is required from theoretical physicists.
> 
> Same as experimental physicists must be very good in engineering
> and physics, theoretical physicists must be very good
> in physics, math and logic.


As with all professions, there are gradients.

Among physicists, there are:
- bleeding edge theoretical physicists, who are not at all interested in 
applications to benefit human existence (here's where an engineer might 
gasp and cry out, "Blasphemy!") but are only interested in knowledge for 
its own sake. These will often plumb the outskirts where there is little 
chance to test their ideas in the next decade or two, and these include 
people like Susskind and Randall who look at multiverse possibilities.

- theorists in closer contact with experimental test, sometimes called 
phenomenologists. Solid state theorists or theorists calculating 
expected signals at particle colliders are good examples of this. Kip 
Thorne of the LIGO team is another. The BCS superconductivity theory is 
another.

- fundamental experimentalists, who build equipment purely to test 
physics principles without much interest or near term objective of 
practical applications. High energy particle physics working at 
colliders are good examples, as are those who do tests of general 
relativity. Many of these have excellent engineering skills, ranging 
from fast electronics to massively parallel computing and neural network 
computer work, from material science to cryogenics.

- applied experimentalists, who are looking to see how theoretical 
principles can be turned into potentially interesting applications. Thin 
film or surface physicists are good examples. Here the overlap with 
engineers is strong, because they may in fact build the first-of-kind 
applications that can be then commercialized, and many of them hold 
patents. Again, the engineering abilities here are strong but peculiar 
to the needs of their work, and they are not certified to be 
broad-application engineers outside of their interest.

Some physicists are gifted with skills in more than one area. Fermi is 
an excellent example of a polymath physicist. All physicists are 
expected to have basic competencies in more than one of these areas, 
though many do not practice those competencies regularly.

> 
> Some engineers have very good Fantasy life I see.

Indeed. It's like some of them are not satisfied with engineering, their 
own chosen professions. They have to take on the mantle of another 
profession they are in fact not well trained for.

For an engineer to say, "I am in fact more than an engineer. I am a 
'practical physicist' and can do anything a physicist does and better," 
is evidence of crippling egotism, and I wonder if training in 
engineering breeds that as a personality trait.

I'll wait here for some engineer to say that he is better equipped to be 
a woodworker than most woodworkers because, c'mon, how hard can it be?


-- 
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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My web site Omar Shabsigh <omar.shabsigh@gmail.com> - 2017-06-29 10:00 -0700
  Re: My web site Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-06-29 19:28 +0200
    Re: My web site Jim Petroff <ruuri@twjotr.eo> - 2017-06-29 19:44 +0000
    Re: My web site Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-29 15:54 -0500
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              Re: My web site Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-30 11:36 +0000
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