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Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages.

From Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages.
Date 2017-05-29 12:16 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <oghkrt$kkk$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (8 earlier) <f29ebb3b-e12c-4338-81ec-0039204ad3e3@googlegroups.com> <ogfvje$bma$1@dont-email.me> <dd2e97ba-d74f-4fa6-ba2a-508600be58c8@googlegroups.com> <oggcp9$cvb$1@dont-email.me> <224d03a6-8c72-4eea-9021-72052056c44d@googlegroups.com>

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On 5/29/2017 11:17 AM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 10:52:58 PM UTC-7, Cecil - k5nwa wrote:

>> Delphi is Pascal on steroids, an excellent development environment with
>> an excellent debugger and tools to deal with Windows, Linux, or MacOS. I
>> looked it up and Delphi has both HOFs and  quotations. Those were very
>> useful and I used them a lot in a BT+ Database library routines, very
>> handy passing routines and accessing the parents variables.
> 
> I actually bought a copy of Kylix, which is the Linux version of Borland Delphi, when CompUSA was going out of business and they had all those shrink-wrapped boxes of disks and manuals in the bargain-bin for $5. In never used it though. AFAIK, Borland Delphi and Kylix were quite powerful --- everybody spoke well of them. Java became the standard and killed off Pascal and (to a lessor extent) C++. Weirdly enough, everybody speaks ill of Java --- it doesn't have anything like quotations or HOFs. I think languages mostly become popular because they are perceived as being "the next big thing" --- a classic example of being famous for being famous.
> 
> Have you tried any of the free versions of Pascal, such as Lazerus? If I do write a Pascal compiler, I should have a Pascal available on the desktop-computer to help me relearn it.
> 

Only for a few small test programs and it worked fine, it emulates an 
older version of Delphi but it does install and work in Windows 10 and 
Linux. I been told by some that use it on a regular basis that it works 
quite well and is very reliable so it might be something in my future, 
Pascal unlike C or C++ can have optional run time checks that makes life 
easier at catching some type of normally hard to find problems.

I'm building a Linux system on one of my nicest CPUs an i7, 3.4GHz, 24GB 
RAM and I installed FreePascal and Lazarus on it, it is part of 
evaluating the use of Linux as a everyday/programming platform instead 
of Windows, it's a low priority project, a couple of days ago I 
installed Go, and the Visual Studio Code software, so far everything is 
doing well and the PC is quite fast. I also figured out how to move 
VirtualBox and vmWare licensed VMs from Windows to Linux and not loose 
the license, I had to do it a little different than what people 
suggested but its working rather well.


>> HOFs I
>> believe are possible in Forth with no changes, but would not quotations
>> require changes to Forth?
>>
>> Is there even a standard way of storing locals?
> 
> How could you have HOFs without quotations???
> 
> I have my rquotations working under VFX and SwiftForth. It should be possible to implement them under any Forth compiler, but carnal knowledge is required. It is just a matter of declaring them to be standard --- then the carnal knowledge is hidden from the user --- same as everything else (for example, division requires carnal knowledge, but that doesn't prevent us from having division in the standard).
> 

Maybe I don't understand Forth HOFs then, the term has existed for a 
while and Delphi and C have the capability. In the classical sense a HOF 
is a function that can have pointers to functions passed to it, it also 
has the ability to return pointers to functions. In that sense Forth has 
HOFs already, and there is nothing new needed. They are handy is some 
types of programs. Classical quotations are functions that defined 
inside a function so when executed they have access to their parents 
data, both reading and writing. Again a very useful tool. In Delphi the 
two are separate items and need not be used together but they often are.

> The Forth-200x committee will never accept rquotations --- the committe is 100% committed to the Paysan-faked quotations that are utterly useless --- Stephen Pelc wrote an article in which he said that quotations aren't possible in Forth and so they have to be faked (this article was the basis for the Paysan-faked quotations, and the RfD is pretty much just the article copied word-for-word).
> 

I look at the discussions on the subject and wonder why they want to put 
in quotations that don't work, whats the point, in Delphi and other 
languages the whole purpose behind quotations it to access or change the 
parents data. I think it's another case of 1970 thinking.

>> For the 65c816 the chip cost around $7 at Mouser, add some RAM and
>> some EPROMs with a small amount of logic and you are in business. That
>> chip is very nice comes up in 6502 compatibility mode then you can turn
>> the extra features.
> 
> If you build a 65c816 experimenter board, you can likely sell it to everybody (including myself) on the 6502 forum. This is not a big market, but it is infinitely larger than zero!
> 
> The 65c816 is not the best choice for serious work, because the ARM dominates. It is not a bad choice though --- somebody could build a product based on the 65c816 though, and it would be reasonably competitive --- so the 65c816 shouldn't be totally dismissed as obsolete.
> 
> The STM8 is pretty popular for low-performance applications that need a lot of memory, which is also what the 65c816 is used for --- in many cases, waiting a few microseconds for a result is okay --- not every project needs the most powerful processor available, that can bend space-time and provide you with a result before you ask for it.
> 

Its just for fun and a learning experience, the STM8 devices are 
interesting you can buy some boards for less than $2 that are quite 
useful for small projects.

>> The Rabbit is fairly fast for the money some decent ones are $40 to $50
>> and all I need is one, the rest is pretty much free, make some changes
>> to a Forth compiler and voila a native compiler no expenses involved
>> just a little bit of time.
> 
> Most of the cost of the Rabbit is there because you get to use Dynamic C that only works on the Rabbit.
> 
> If you are not going to use Dynamic C, but are going to write your own Forth, then you would be better off to buy an eZ80 from Zilog that is more powerful and costs less. I have an experimenter board for the eZ80 --- I attended a seminar at Zilog in San Jose and bought it there --- I have never really done anything with the eZ80 though, and it is in the same category as the 65c816 now (pretty much obsolete).

I have some ez80 boards on my Mouser Project list, one of these days 
I'll get one.

> 
>> The people that bought
>> Borland (Embarcadero) think too much of themselves and a copy of Delphi
>> now cost around $1700.
> 
> VFX is also pretty pricey --- I'm not going to buy it either --- this is why Juergen Pintaske says that I "don't understand how the corporate world works" and that I'm a "Forth killer" because I write Forth code and distribute it in the novice-package.
> 

If you are going to eventually write your own Pascal I would look at the 
Borland/Lazarus software as models they are very similar, Lazarus source 
is available for one to look at for ideas. Lazarus is written in 
Lazarus, if you are going to use MPEs VFX to write it that should be an 
interesting project, pretty involved.

One thing about doing it that way is the powerful tools built into Forth 
that can make your life easier like using their built in code generator 
and optimizer but that only works for a Intel CPU version. The easiest 
way to build a Pascal compiler is using a recursive decent parser which 
naturally generates as it's output RPN code how about that for nicely 
generating object code with a Forth Compiler.

I will be spending some time today becoming familiar again with my Macro 
Processors and used them to translate PAC code to a real CPU code and 
see how well it works, but all of that will take some time, over the 
next few days my task will be to familiarize myself with software that 
will be an interesting test of my memory which I think is not as good as 
it used to be. Unfortunately I have the source code to the software but 
not some of the sample projects, that would help me remember me but they 
are history. I do have some very old computers in the garage but the 
really old ones that would have the software were given away so 
hopefully there is an old macro processor project in there somewhere.



-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 14:49 -0500
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. minforth@arcor.de - 2017-05-26 13:17 -0700
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 17:53 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 22:31 -0700
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 00:57 -0500
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 01:09 -0400
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 00:59 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 02:09 -0400
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 09:35 -0500
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 12:22 -0400
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 11:53 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 13:13 -0400
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2017-05-27 12:24 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 13:13 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2017-05-27 13:33 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 14:53 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 14:44 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 10:09 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 12:57 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 12:14 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-28 16:11 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 02:11 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 01:54 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 03:22 -0400
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 15:46 -0700
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-27 01:23 -0500
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 09:29 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-27 11:36 -0700
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 14:25 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-05-27 21:58 -0400
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 11:20 -0700
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 15:20 -0400
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 14:20 -0500
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 18:33 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 18:50 -0500
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 20:13 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 10:23 +0200
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 12:26 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-30 04:22 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-30 11:49 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-30 05:07 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-30 18:58 +0200
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 12:28 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 20:14 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 14:08 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-29 10:52 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 12:50 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-29 19:06 +0100
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 20:00 -0700
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 22:29 -0500
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 22:10 -0700
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 11:22 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 14:45 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 18:25 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 21:43 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-01 11:27 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 12:50 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-01 12:47 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 16:23 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 16:32 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-01 12:08 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-01 21:47 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 06:34 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 07:13 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 07:57 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-06-03 02:17 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 21:07 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 21:48 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 00:52 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 09:17 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 12:16 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 19:21 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 23:13 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-30 01:07 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-30 15:54 +0100
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-29 19:02 +0100
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 11:06 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 19:29 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 23:01 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-30 14:53 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-29 13:59 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 17:03 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 19:37 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 22:52 -0500
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 11:49 -0700
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 14:12 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 02:35 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-27 21:04 -0700
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 21:56 -0700
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-28 01:10 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 13:21 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-28 11:53 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 15:09 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 02:40 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-29 13:10 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 00:57 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 02:17 -0400
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 11:50 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 13:52 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 13:47 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 03:19 -0400
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 15:40 -0700
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 16:31 -0700
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 20:17 -0700
      Opinions on a C language header for words? Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 21:38 -0700

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