Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages.

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages.
Date	2017-05-30 00:57 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<ogitth$r81$2@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <14799416-ead3-4d94-8196-caaafe2a121f@googlegroups.com> <ogf0ov$f85$1@dont-email.me> <170376cd-6b0c-4764-83a9-61e5b1fc1963@googlegroups.com> <oggfir$j91$2@dont-email.me> <f04d05ce-bd6c-4d18-a1da-ee7534b78199@googlegroups.com>

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jim.brakefield@ieee.org wrote on 5/29/2017 4:10 PM:
> On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 1:40:45 AM UTC-5, rickman wrote:
>> jim.brakefield@ieee.org wrote on 5/28/2017 2:53 PM:
>>> On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-5, rickman wrote:
>>>> jim.brakefield@ieee.org wrote on 5/28/2017 4:10 AM:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 11:56:50 PM UTC-5, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 9:05:01 PM UTC-7, jim.bra...@ieee.org wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 10:00:39 PM UTC-5, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> ]>There are public-domain implementations of the PDP11 available in Verilog,
>>>>>>> ]> which is not true of the MSP430.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://opencores.org/project,neo430 (VHDL)
>>>>>>> http://opencores.org/project,openmsp430 (Verilog)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cool!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect that the MSP430 requires a bigger and more expensive FPGA than the PDP11 --- I doubt that Cecil cares about saving a few dollars however, as he is only planning on making one board for his own use --- price only matters to people who are producing boards in a high volume.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm just speculating as to requirements and prices --- I don't really know anything about FPGAs, so I can't really answer the question.
>>>>>
>>>>> ]>I suspect that the MSP430 requires a bigger and more expensive FPGA than the PDP11
>>>>>
>>>>> Ugh, just the opposite
>>>>> neo430          ~1000 LUTs
>>>>> openmsp430      ~1400 LUTs
>>>>> pdp11-34verilog 2500-3400 LUTs
>>>>> pdp2011         huge
>>>>> w11             3400+ LUTs
>>>>>
>>>>> PDP11 web links:
>>>>> http://www.heeltoe.com/download/pdp11/README.html
>>>>> http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/pdp-11/
>>>>> http://opencores.org/project,w11
>>>>
>>>> I'm a bit surprised by those numbers.  But then they are about the
>>>> implementations rather than the ISAs.  I would have expected to the two
>>>> architectures to be about the same size really.  The LSI-11 was a single
>>>> chip (well, a few chips counting the microcode) CPU at a very early time in
>>>> IC fabrication technology.  I don't know how many gates were used, but I'd
>>>> have expected it to be on a par with similar CPUs.  Much of the size of a
>>>> CPU design is in the width of the data path and the complexity of the modes
>>>> as well as the extent of parallelism (not in the sense of multiple
>>>> instructions in parallel, but in performing the various functions of the
>>>> instruction in parallel).
>>>>
>>>> If I get time I may learn something about these two processors and compare
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Modern low cost FPGAs run about 1K LUTs to the dollar.
>>>>> And even "small" FPGAs have 10K LUTs plus multipliers and dual port RAM
>>>>
>>>> The $1/1kLUT is only a rough approximation and only holds at the very low
>>>> end.  Price per LUT goes down very quickly with larger sizes.  No small part
>>>> of the cost of most ICs relates to putting the durn things in a package with
>>>> pins and testing it.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Rick C
>>>
>>>>> I'm a bit surprised by those numbers.  But then they are about the
>>>>> implementations rather than the ISAs.  I would have expected to the two
>>>>> architectures to be about the same size really.
>>>
>>> First, didn't spend much time on generating these numbers.  Much depends on the module you use as top.  And a SOC version with many peripherals or memory caching can easily double the LUT count.  Generally I run bare cores.
>>>
>>> Second the skill of the implementer can easily make a factor of two difference in LUT count or Fmax.
>>>
>>> Third, one can trade micro-code for speed.
>>
>> Yeah, that's why I said the numbers reflected the "implementations rather
>> than the ISAs".
>>
>>
>>> You can the find outdated spreadsheets at http://opencores.org/project,up_core_list
>>> Goal was to determine designs with best figure of merit (Fmax/LUT count adjusted for data width and number of clocks per instruction).
>>> Do not consider the results more accurate than, say, +/-30%
>>
>> Interesting.   I will try to take a look at it.  I would have worked on
>> something like this myself, but there are so many crap cores at opencores
>> that are poorly documented (nearly all of them) or just plain incomplete.  I
>> don't know how many are clones of some old CPU.  I was turned off from
>> looking at them further.  This was maybe 2002-2005 I think.  I do remember
>> as time passed the signal to noise ratio got worse and not better.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Rick C
>
> ]>there are so many crap cores at opencores that are poorly documented
>
> About 400 microprocessor cores at opencores or elsewhere on the web
> About 200 or so give reasonable results.
> Anything with less than 16 instructions is usually too simple to be useful
> Only about 40 written to run without modifications on any FPGA family
>   Most of the time, a design will run on Altera or Xilinx and not both
> Have found about 70 Forth cores and only have results on ~20
>
> BTW
> It took several months to make all the runs.
> Don't relish repeating the effort.
> It would be much easier if each design had complete project files:(

I feel your pain.

-- 

Rick C

Thread

Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 14:49 -0500
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. minforth@arcor.de - 2017-05-26 13:17 -0700
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 17:53 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 22:31 -0700
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 00:57 -0500
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 01:09 -0400
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 00:59 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 02:09 -0400
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 09:35 -0500
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 12:22 -0400
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 11:53 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 13:13 -0400
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2017-05-27 12:24 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 13:13 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2017-05-27 13:33 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 14:53 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 14:44 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 10:09 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 12:57 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 12:14 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-28 16:11 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 02:11 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 01:54 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 03:22 -0400
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 15:46 -0700
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-27 01:23 -0500
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 09:29 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-27 11:36 -0700
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 14:25 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-05-27 21:58 -0400
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 11:20 -0700
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 15:20 -0400
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 14:20 -0500
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 18:33 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 18:50 -0500
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 20:13 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 10:23 +0200
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 12:26 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-30 04:22 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-30 11:49 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-30 05:07 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-30 18:58 +0200
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 12:28 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 20:14 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 14:08 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-29 10:52 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 12:50 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-29 19:06 +0100
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 20:00 -0700
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 22:29 -0500
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 22:10 -0700
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 11:22 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 14:45 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 18:25 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 21:43 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-01 11:27 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 12:50 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-01 12:47 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 16:23 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 16:32 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-01 12:08 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-01 21:47 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 06:34 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 07:13 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 07:57 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-06-03 02:17 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 21:07 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 21:48 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 00:52 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 09:17 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 12:16 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 19:21 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 23:13 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-30 01:07 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-30 15:54 +0100
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-29 19:02 +0100
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 11:06 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 19:29 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 23:01 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-30 14:53 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-29 13:59 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 17:03 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 19:37 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 22:52 -0500
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 11:49 -0700
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 14:12 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 02:35 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-27 21:04 -0700
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 21:56 -0700
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-28 01:10 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 13:21 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-28 11:53 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 15:09 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 02:40 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-29 13:10 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 00:57 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 02:17 -0400
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 11:50 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 13:52 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 13:47 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 03:19 -0400
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 15:40 -0700
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 16:31 -0700
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 20:17 -0700
      Opinions on a C language header for words? Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 21:38 -0700

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