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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #60006

Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages.

From Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages.
Date 2017-05-29 00:52 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <oggcp9$cvb$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <76d52560-abac-4a83-a208-f63355f8852e@googlegroups.com> <ogetaf$3jc$1@dont-email.me> <f29ebb3b-e12c-4338-81ec-0039204ad3e3@googlegroups.com> <ogfvje$bma$1@dont-email.me> <dd2e97ba-d74f-4fa6-ba2a-508600be58c8@googlegroups.com>

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On 5/28/2017 11:48 PM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 7:07:59 PM UTC-7, Cecil - k5nwa wrote:
>>> All in all, I think that a double-stack greatly improves Forth. There is no point in developing a new Forth unless it is going to be an improvement over ANS-Forth --- improving on ANS-Forth is easy and obvious --- this should always be done.
>>
>> If you have registers capable of implementing a stack the why stop at two?
> 
> What primitive data-type does not fit in either one or two cells? I would think that a single-cell data-stack and a double-cell data-stack would pretty much cover every primitive data-type.
> 
> If you have data-types that are bigger than two cells, then you are going to have to just make a struct in the heap and hold a pointer on the data-stack. The ALLOCATE and FREE will make this slower, but it is workable, even on a micro-controller.
> 
>>> I wouldn't have DO LOOP at all. That is just cruft from the 1970s.
>>>
>>> You have local variables, so you should do iteration using BEGIN WHILE REPEAT and hold the index or whatever in local variables. The DO LOOP constructs use I and J as a crude kind of local variable --- this is not necessary if you have actual local variables available.
>>
>> OK but I like the DO LOOP because its easy to use and the I local is
>> very handy at times and helps you avoid doing unnecessary math.
> 
> I would recommend enhanced versions of BEGIN WHILE REPEAT --- you still use locals --- but the arithmetic is hidden from the user.
> 
> Basically, these are macros that generate BEGIN WHILE REPEAT and the code to do the advancement of the index along with the comparison of the index to the limit --- don't worry --- it is easy.
> 
>>> Also, the application programmer shouldn't normally use BEGIN WHILE REPEAT at all. Code that does iteration using BEGIN WHILE REPEAT should be buried inside of HOFs, which are typically written by code-library writers or "systems programmers" or whatever. The application programmer would do iteration by writing a quotation and giving the quotation to a HOF that does the iteration internally and executes the quotation. I would expect that most programs would not have any explicit iteration with BEGIN WHILE REPEAT but would rely entirely on HOFs.
>>
>> I'm not familiar with these techniques as I mostly have used older Forth
>> where these are not available. Maybe I have used something similar in
>> Delphi but they would be called something else, I do recall writing code
>> where a function defined inside another function can access the data of
>> the parent and change that data, but I forget what it was called. I used
>> it to eliminate the passing of a whole lot of data to a function.
> 
> You're not familiar with these techniques because there is no Forth, old or new, that does this --- it is just something that I made up.
> 
> I don't know Delphi, but I did read a book on Pascal-S way back in high-school, that provided source-code for a compiler. This Pascal had nested functions. It also had a "display table" that allowed the parent function's locals to be visible in the nested function when it executed. Pretty complicated! My quotations are much simpler, although not as versatile.

Delphi is Pascal on steroids, an excellent development environment with 
an excellent debugger and tools to deal with Windows, Linux, or MacOS. I 
looked it up and Delphi has both HOFs and  quotations. Those were very 
useful and I used them a lot in a BT+ Database library routines, very 
handy passing routines and accessing the parents variables. HOFs I 
believe are possible in Forth with no changes, but would not quotations 
require changes to Forth?

Is there even a standard way of storing locals?

>> There are a couple of old CPUs that eventually I want to build either a
>> board or a FPGA version, the Z80, MC6809, 6502 or its modern version the
>> W65C816.
> 
> What is your goal? Do you have some application in mind? Or do you just enjoy programming and want to play with one of these old processors because they are cool?
> 
> You might try one of those Rabbit boards if you are interested in the Z80 --- they look like fun --- I haven't tried them though.
> 
> The 6809 and 65c816 both score high on the coolometer --- they aren't practical though --- the ARM is the practical choice for pretty much everything.
> 
There are some FPGA MC6809 implementations that are free and extremely 
fast. For the 65c816 the chip cost around $7 at Mouser, add some RAM and 
some EPROMs with a small amount of logic and you are in business. That 
chip is very nice comes up in 6502 compatibility mode then you can turn 
the extra features.

I'm just having fun, I'm retired due to health issues and I have a very 
long list of things I would like to try out. I don't have a ton of money 
but these kinds of projects are low cost so I can indulge away. For a 
real project I would use something more current with an ARM, MSP430, or 
dsPIC device they are all pretty inexpensive specially the ARM boards.

The Rabbit is fairly fast for the money some decent ones are $40 to $50 
and all I need is one, the rest is pretty much free, make some changes 
to a Forth compiler and voila a native compiler no expenses involved 
just a little bit of time.

>>> I think you are totally messing up the efficiency of your Forth system by assuming that you have 16 registers and your Forth should use them all. As I said, an optimizing compiler can make use of extra registers to hold values temporarily, but writing such an optimizing compiler is very difficult (I've never done it, and I wouldn't know how to even begin such a project). A much better use of 16 registers is to have two banks of 8 registers, which are used by the main-program and the ISRs. This is a micro-controller, after all --- most micro-controllers spend significant amounts of time saving and restoring registers as they enter and exit ISRs --- making ISRs efficient is the obvious way to boost the speed, and a lot easier than writing an optimizing compiler.
>>
>> There are so many ways to optimize code, many books have been written on
>> the subject and it is an interesting subject. The times I have written
>> optimizing code generators which is for about 12 different CPUs I been
>> off the beaten path and done it my way which generally not how it is
>> found in compiler books. It may not be the most optimum way of doing it
>> but I don't care to be a lemming, it works good enough and it's simple
>> enough. I feel the same way about Forth I like what I like and too bad
>> if the rest of the world does not agree. But I'm always willing to learn
>> something new or a better way to do things.
>>
>> One day you need to try it it's a lot of fun watching simply generated
>> code turn into an object of beauty and efficiency.
> 
> Recently I have been giving some thought to writing a Pascal compiler for either the 80c320 or the PIC18 --- that may be my next project --- write it in VFX using the novice-package, and use a code optimization technique that I thought of way back in 1994 but never implemented.
> 
> I actually do know a little bit about Pascal compilers (that book I mentioned, for one thing), although I've only written a few small programs in Pascal (I liked QuickPascal back in MS-DOS days, and Turbo Pascal on the CP/M machines before that).

Borland made Turbo Pascal and other Turbo products like Turbo C and 
Turbo Prolog I own them all, later it evolved into the Delphi and C++ 
Builder development environment. I have several copies of Delphi and C++ 
Builder the latest being version 7 but it won't run in Windows 10 64 
bits, I need when I have some time install it on my 32 bit Windows 7 
machine, I believe it will run there just fine. The people that bought 
Borland (Embarcadero) think too much of themselves and a copy of Delphi 
now cost around $1700.

> 
> BTW: Lemmings don't actually follow each other over a cliff in a mass-suicide as most people believe:
> http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=56
> 

I know that but is now means to most people, following the crowd without 
thinking to disastrous results, sounds familiar?

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 14:49 -0500
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. minforth@arcor.de - 2017-05-26 13:17 -0700
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 17:53 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 22:31 -0700
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 00:57 -0500
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 01:09 -0400
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 00:59 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 02:09 -0400
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 09:35 -0500
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 12:22 -0400
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 11:53 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 13:13 -0400
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2017-05-27 12:24 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 13:13 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2017-05-27 13:33 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 14:53 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 14:44 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 10:09 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 12:57 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 12:14 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-28 16:11 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 02:11 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 01:54 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 03:22 -0400
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 15:46 -0700
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-27 01:23 -0500
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 09:29 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-27 11:36 -0700
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 14:25 -0500
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-05-27 21:58 -0400
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 11:20 -0700
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 15:20 -0400
      Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 14:20 -0500
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 18:33 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 18:50 -0500
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 20:13 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 10:23 +0200
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 12:26 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-30 04:22 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-30 11:49 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-30 05:07 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-30 18:58 +0200
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 12:28 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 20:14 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 14:08 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-29 10:52 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 12:50 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-29 19:06 +0100
        Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 20:00 -0700
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-27 22:29 -0500
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 22:10 -0700
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 11:22 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 14:45 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 18:25 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 21:43 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-01 11:27 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 12:50 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-01 12:47 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 16:23 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 16:32 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-01 12:08 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-01 21:47 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 06:34 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 07:13 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 07:57 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-06-03 02:17 +0200
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 21:07 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 21:48 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 00:52 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 09:17 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 12:16 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 19:21 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 23:13 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-30 01:07 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-30 15:54 +0100
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-29 19:02 +0100
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 11:06 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 19:29 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 23:01 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-30 14:53 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-29 13:59 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 17:03 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 19:37 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-29 22:52 -0500
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 11:49 -0700
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 14:12 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 02:35 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-27 21:04 -0700
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 21:56 -0700
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-28 01:10 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 13:21 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-28 11:53 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 15:09 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 02:40 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-29 13:10 -0700
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 00:57 -0400
          Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 02:17 -0400
            Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 11:50 -0500
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 13:52 -0400
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-28 13:47 -0500
                Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 03:19 -0400
              Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 15:40 -0700
  Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 16:31 -0700
    Re: Forth Implementations advantages and disadvantages. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 20:17 -0700
      Opinions on a C language header for words? Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 21:38 -0700

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