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Re: What's wrong with "national health care"?

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: What's wrong with "national health care"?
Date 2017-05-26 04:40 -0400
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <og8pgb$s1c$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <mikdic1lv1gos8oknlopo225hhe5lqf93n@4ax.com> <og6u7u$hji$1@dont-email.me> <J8EVA.44031$Bl1.3360@fx27.am4> <og739b$4u5$1@dont-email.me> <og8o7a$1o5d$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Martin Brown wrote on 5/26/2017 4:15 AM:
> On 25/05/2017 18:15, rickman wrote:
>> Tom Gardner wrote on 5/25/2017 1:04 PM:
>>> On 25/05/17 16:49, rickman wrote:
>>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote on 5/25/2017 8:57 AM:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes they cheap out a bit on things like casts- but you can pay
>>>>> extra and get the spiffy new ones and most working people have some
>>>>> kind of supplimentary insurance like Blue Cross that covers a private
>>>>> room, drugs, dental, etc. that the basic plan every resident gets
>>>>> doesn't cover.
>>>>
>>>> Drugs aren't covered by your national health system?
>
> In the UK there is a nominal fixed charge for any drug prescription if
> you are able to pay (ie typically not on benefits or under 16). If you
> have a long term chronic condition then you can apply to pay an annual
> fee instead (which works out cheaper).
>
>>>>> AFAUI, the standards are set federally but it's administered on a
>>>>> provincial basis, and hospitals etc. are privately run so the actual
>>>>> government employees are minimized. I think it would be a mistake to
>>>>> have it run federally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Death panels? Not so much though I've seen doctors question whether
>>>>> the quality of life that a severely impaired person has justifies
>>>>> heroic measures to restart their heart etc.
>>>>
>>>> I think that qualifies as a "death panel".
>>>
>>> A "death panel" is really inside an insurance company,
>>> probably in the form of some jobsworth that hides behind
>>> "you've reached your lifetime payout limit" or "we don't
>>> sanction using that treatment/drug".
>>
>> Nope, we don't have lifetime maximums in the US anymore thanks to
>> Obamacare (the ACA).
>
> I am sure Trump will rectify that for you.
>
>> Well, we do, but it is applied unevenly.  If you have insurance there is
>> no lifetime maximum.  If you don't have insurance the lifetime maximum
>> only allows emergency care, all other treatments are not provided.
>
> Can't you see that only treating the uninsured for expensive emergency
> care instead of fixing chronic conditions is a lousy strategy? It is
> even worse when they have infectious diseases like multi drug resistant
> TB which is making a comeback thanks to systemic US healthcare failings.

Why are you asking me?  I didn't create the system we have.


> Snag is with having insurance how do you retain your insurance policy
> once you are chronically ill and unable to work? No doubt renewal
> premiums go up enormously when they know you have an expensive incurable
> disease (or possibly even a genetic predisposition).

I was still in my 30s when I asked that at an benefits presentation. 
The bottom line is after some months the company would dump you and you 
get 18 months of COBRA which is the same insurance, but now you pay all 
the premiums yourself.  After that you fuck off and die.


> The UK system where most healthy people are glad that they are not
> getting their money's worth of treatment from the NHS is far superior.
>
>>>> Here in the US a patient can
>>>> register a "living will"/"advanced directive" to not require
>>>> resuscitation.
>>>> Otherwise a doctor is obligated to do what they can to prolong life.
>>>> This is
>>>> not a decision a doctor can make *for* a patient.
>>>
>>> I suspect Sphero has slightly misinterpreted what was
>>> happening. I note he did not say what the /result/ of
>>> the question was.
>
> In the UK it can also be made by a relative of the patient if they are
> too young or unable to express their wishes. Do Not Resuscitate being
> the most obvious one where the frail elderly are concerned. The crash
> cart procedure would almost certainly kill them anyway with an 88% fail
> rate for the frail elderly. Broken ribs and internal organ damage being
> the common side effects of CPR and defib. Guidelines are pretty clear:
>
> https://www.uhb.nhs.uk/Downloads/pdf/PiCardioPulmonaryResuscitation.pdf
>
> Unfortunately TV hospital dramas give people a false impression of the
> magical life saving effects of modern equipment. The success rate even
> on fit adult males with a heart attack is worse than I had expected (and
> worse than is depicted for frail elderly in TV dramas).

I'm not sure how it works in the US if you don't have an advance 
directive and you are not able to make your own decisions.  No, that's 
not true.  I know someone who was in that position.  She was non compos 
mentis and lost the ability to swallow.  The guardian gave permission to 
let her starve.  They can do the same thing with stroke victims.  But 
doctors don't get to decide, only the person responsible for making 
their decisions.


>>>> or other vital organ trouble.  If you said he had a 4 year life
>>>> expectancy, you
>>>> would be WRONG!A person is not a statistic.  Statistics only apply to
>>>> populations.
>
> Actually the remaining life expectancy is on average about 5 years if
> you reach 90. Something has to fail at some point. There will always be
> a few outliers and treatment *is* based on the fitness or otherwise of
> the individual not on their calendar age.

You don't get it!  The age is irrelevant if their condition is the 
indicator.

The only thing we know for sure is no one has ever lived forever... 
except for everyone alive.  Those people have not died...  There's more 
of us than all the dead people, so how good an indicator can the past 
be?  lol


>>> Here I've seen age as one of /many/ factors in decisions
>>> as to what's in the /patient's/ best interest. Quite right
>>> too.
>>
>> Not at all "right".  Age is a way to group people *instead* of using
>> facts about the person.  It has no bearing on medical treatment.  As I
>> have already explained, state of health is independent of age other than
>> when looking at populations.  If you can't grasp the distiction between
>> statistics that apply to groups and facts that apply to individuals we
>> can end the discussion here.
>
> They do both. Age and weight are good predictors of how well someone
> will cope with a general anaesthetic and how they will recover with
> rehab for example. Too light or too heavy and the outcome is worse.

You *really* don't get it.  It isn't age.  It is *all* their state of 
health.  Someone who is 50 can be no better off than someone who is 70 
and vice versa.


>>> OTOH, if a senile patient gets pneumonia, then with
>>> the agreement of all, they might not treat it.
>>> Good. Not for nothing is pneumonia known as
>>> "the old person's friend".
>>
>> More irrational analysis of the facts.  If the person has dementia to
>> the point they are in misery, then that is the issue.  HOW DOES AGE
>> ENTER INTO IT???
>
> They are not necessarily in misery but their quality of life is as near
> zero as makes no difference. Even so the NHS will do their best to keep
> someone alive who wants to stay alive as they did for my friend who we
> buried last week. Most famous high profile example of NHS car being
> Stephen Hawking whose life they have saved several times.
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6017878/Stephen-Hawking-I-would-not-be-alive-without-the-NHS.html
>
>
> That did not stop the American Right "alternative truth" brigade trying
> to claim that he would not still be alive if he lived in the UK.

Sometimes you prattle as much as the others here.  I've never heard of 
the 'American Right "alternative truth" brigade'.  Are they connected to 
the Salvation Army?

I suppose there are no idiots in the UK?

-- 

Rick C

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Thread

What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 15:10 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-05-13 22:54 +0000
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 15:59 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 00:34 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:11 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 08:49 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 02:00 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:14 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 08:31 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 15:56 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 09:04 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:02 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 16:10 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 01:12 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:57 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-18 10:42 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 14:10 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 10:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 15:48 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 13:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:47 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 15:40 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 00:03 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:39 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 08:09 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-05-18 09:13 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 09:37 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 04:57 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:58 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-17 08:21 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 13:28 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:13 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 10:14 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 13:31 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 19:17 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 17:47 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 23:45 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-19 19:57 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 23:35 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-20 07:42 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-20 00:48 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 09:24 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 12:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 17:44 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 16:49 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:29 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 19:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 11:32 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 01:16 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:04 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-24 07:40 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-05-31 11:57 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 09:05 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-20 05:12 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 21:07 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-23 19:04 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:46 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-24 12:56 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 12:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:12 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-24 16:11 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 19:49 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-26 15:41 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:44 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:18 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:54 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 23:00 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 15:32 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 15:01 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 00:52 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-05-15 19:17 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:26 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:01 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 21:12 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 13:51 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 20:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 15:50 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:27 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 22:00 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-05-14 18:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 16:20 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:05 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 17:49 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-13 18:02 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:25 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:28 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 19:39 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:05 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 20:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 18:19 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 21:53 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:18 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 12:51 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-20 11:54 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-20 12:05 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-22 08:58 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-22 11:58 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:29 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:06 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:38 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:44 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-05-13 17:35 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 17:56 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:00 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:11 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:29 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:47 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 22:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 19:56 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:08 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 21:20 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:02 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:16 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:02 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 15:58 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-14 09:19 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:29 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:40 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:04 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-14 11:12 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 12:23 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-14 10:55 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:32 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 20:44 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:03 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-13 20:17 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 20:57 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 08:55 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 08:11 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 14:25 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:54 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 09:09 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:43 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 00:05 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 19:30 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-05-13 16:32 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:00 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 16:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:18 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 17:31 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:36 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 20:58 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:40 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 12:58 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:35 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:17 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:04 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:27 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 19:49 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:27 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:13 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 18:53 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:16 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 19:43 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:52 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-17 18:23 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:59 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:47 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-05-13 20:06 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? mrdarrett@gmail.com - 2017-05-17 12:53 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 13:33 +1000
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 23:53 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:11 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:24 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 20:39 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:16 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:29 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:58 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 21:04 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:10 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 14:29 +1000
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 00:48 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 00:13 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:10 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 09:44 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 12:34 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 09:34 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 09:03 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 12:36 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 14:12 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 14:36 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 17:43 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 18:01 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 15:18 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 19:39 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-19 09:22 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 13:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-19 17:51 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-22 11:30 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-22 12:32 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-23 10:58 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 17:09 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-23 14:30 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-24 13:30 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 13:01 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-26 15:43 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:13 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-19 07:50 +1000
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 20:03 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 20:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> - 2017-05-14 12:19 +0800
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 22:08 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 22:20 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 18:10 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:31 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:28 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:53 +0100
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:30 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:17 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 11:49 +0100
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 12:56 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-19 18:05 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-20 08:36 +0100
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-20 15:58 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 10:21 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-23 13:26 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 17:41 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:37 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 00:45 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:52 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 00:52 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 15:16 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 08:08 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:33 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:50 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 01:32 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 08:05 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:19 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-25 08:57 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 11:49 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-25 18:04 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 13:15 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:15 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:28 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 04:40 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-05-31 06:19 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-31 18:08 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-25 18:30 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-25 13:15 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:54 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 12:23 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 13:44 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 13:47 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-24 00:18 +0000
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-24 00:24 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-24 09:20 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 12:38 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-06-24 12:11 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-24 13:04 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-06-29 14:20 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-29 15:37 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-06-30 11:05 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-30 08:13 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-06-30 12:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-06-30 03:43 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 21:07 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 18:59 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-26 22:17 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-27 09:37 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-27 09:30 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-27 18:23 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-26 08:47 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 13:43 -0700

csiph-web