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Re: What's wrong with "national health care"?

From Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: What's wrong with "national health care"?
Date 2017-05-26 09:15 +0100
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <og8o7a$1o5d$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References <of801n$5ej$1@dont-email.me> <mikdic1lv1gos8oknlopo225hhe5lqf93n@4ax.com> <og6u7u$hji$1@dont-email.me> <J8EVA.44031$Bl1.3360@fx27.am4> <og739b$4u5$1@dont-email.me>

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On 25/05/2017 18:15, rickman wrote:
> Tom Gardner wrote on 5/25/2017 1:04 PM:
>> On 25/05/17 16:49, rickman wrote:
>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote on 5/25/2017 8:57 AM:
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes they cheap out a bit on things like casts- but you can pay
>>>> extra and get the spiffy new ones and most working people have some
>>>> kind of supplimentary insurance like Blue Cross that covers a private
>>>> room, drugs, dental, etc. that the basic plan every resident gets
>>>> doesn't cover.
>>>
>>> Drugs aren't covered by your national health system?

In the UK there is a nominal fixed charge for any drug prescription if 
you are able to pay (ie typically not on benefits or under 16). If you 
have a long term chronic condition then you can apply to pay an annual 
fee instead (which works out cheaper).

>>>> AFAUI, the standards are set federally but it's administered on a
>>>> provincial basis, and hospitals etc. are privately run so the actual
>>>> government employees are minimized. I think it would be a mistake to
>>>> have it run federally.
>>>>
>>>> Death panels? Not so much though I've seen doctors question whether
>>>> the quality of life that a severely impaired person has justifies
>>>> heroic measures to restart their heart etc.
>>>
>>> I think that qualifies as a "death panel".
>>
>> A "death panel" is really inside an insurance company,
>> probably in the form of some jobsworth that hides behind
>> "you've reached your lifetime payout limit" or "we don't
>> sanction using that treatment/drug".
>
> Nope, we don't have lifetime maximums in the US anymore thanks to
> Obamacare (the ACA).

I am sure Trump will rectify that for you.

> Well, we do, but it is applied unevenly.  If you have insurance there is
> no lifetime maximum.  If you don't have insurance the lifetime maximum
> only allows emergency care, all other treatments are not provided.

Can't you see that only treating the uninsured for expensive emergency 
care instead of fixing chronic conditions is a lousy strategy? It is 
even worse when they have infectious diseases like multi drug resistant 
TB which is making a comeback thanks to systemic US healthcare failings.

Snag is with having insurance how do you retain your insurance policy 
once you are chronically ill and unable to work? No doubt renewal 
premiums go up enormously when they know you have an expensive incurable 
disease (or possibly even a genetic predisposition).

The UK system where most healthy people are glad that they are not 
getting their money's worth of treatment from the NHS is far superior.

>>> Here in the US a patient can
>>> register a "living will"/"advanced directive" to not require
>>> resuscitation.
>>> Otherwise a doctor is obligated to do what they can to prolong life.
>>> This is
>>> not a decision a doctor can make *for* a patient.
>>
>> I suspect Sphero has slightly misinterpreted what was
>> happening. I note he did not say what the /result/ of
>> the question was.

In the UK it can also be made by a relative of the patient if they are 
too young or unable to express their wishes. Do Not Resuscitate being 
the most obvious one where the frail elderly are concerned. The crash 
cart procedure would almost certainly kill them anyway with an 88% fail 
rate for the frail elderly. Broken ribs and internal organ damage being 
the common side effects of CPR and defib. Guidelines are pretty clear:

https://www.uhb.nhs.uk/Downloads/pdf/PiCardioPulmonaryResuscitation.pdf

Unfortunately TV hospital dramas give people a false impression of the 
magical life saving effects of modern equipment. The success rate even 
on fit adult males with a heart attack is worse than I had expected (and 
worse than is depicted for frail elderly in TV dramas).

>>> or other vital organ trouble.  If you said he had a 4 year life
>>> expectancy, you
>>> would be WRONG!A person is not a statistic.  Statistics only apply to
>>> populations.

Actually the remaining life expectancy is on average about 5 years if 
you reach 90. Something has to fail at some point. There will always be 
a few outliers and treatment *is* based on the fitness or otherwise of 
the individual not on their calendar age.

>> Here I've seen age as one of /many/ factors in decisions
>> as to what's in the /patient's/ best interest. Quite right
>> too.
>
> Not at all "right".  Age is a way to group people *instead* of using
> facts about the person.  It has no bearing on medical treatment.  As I
> have already explained, state of health is independent of age other than
> when looking at populations.  If you can't grasp the distiction between
> statistics that apply to groups and facts that apply to individuals we
> can end the discussion here.

They do both. Age and weight are good predictors of how well someone 
will cope with a general anaesthetic and how they will recover with 
rehab for example. Too light or too heavy and the outcome is worse.

>> OTOH, if a senile patient gets pneumonia, then with
>> the agreement of all, they might not treat it.
>> Good. Not for nothing is pneumonia known as
>> "the old person's friend".
>
> More irrational analysis of the facts.  If the person has dementia to
> the point they are in misery, then that is the issue.  HOW DOES AGE
> ENTER INTO IT???

They are not necessarily in misery but their quality of life is as near 
zero as makes no difference. Even so the NHS will do their best to keep 
someone alive who wants to stay alive as they did for my friend who we 
buried last week. Most famous high profile example of NHS car being 
Stephen Hawking whose life they have saved several times.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6017878/Stephen-Hawking-I-would-not-be-alive-without-the-NHS.html

That did not stop the American Right "alternative truth" brigade trying 
to claim that he would not still be alive if he lived in the UK.

-- 
Regards,
Martin Brown

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Thread

What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 15:10 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-05-13 22:54 +0000
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 15:59 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 00:34 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:11 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 08:49 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 02:00 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:14 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 08:31 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 15:56 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 09:04 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:02 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 16:10 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 01:12 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:57 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-18 10:42 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 14:10 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 10:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 15:48 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 13:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:47 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 15:40 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 00:03 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:39 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 08:09 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-05-18 09:13 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 09:37 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 04:57 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:58 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-17 08:21 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 13:28 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:13 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 10:14 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 13:31 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 19:17 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 17:47 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 23:45 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-19 19:57 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 23:35 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-20 07:42 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-20 00:48 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 09:24 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 12:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 17:44 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 16:49 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:29 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 19:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 11:32 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 01:16 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:04 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-24 07:40 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-05-31 11:57 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 09:05 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-20 05:12 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 21:07 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-23 19:04 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:46 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-24 12:56 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 12:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:12 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-24 16:11 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 19:49 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-26 15:41 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:44 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:18 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:54 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 23:00 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 15:32 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 15:01 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 00:52 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-05-15 19:17 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:26 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:01 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 21:12 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 13:51 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 20:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 15:50 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:27 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 22:00 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-05-14 18:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 16:20 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:05 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 17:49 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-13 18:02 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:25 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:28 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 19:39 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:05 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 20:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 18:19 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 21:53 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:18 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 12:51 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-20 11:54 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-20 12:05 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-22 08:58 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-22 11:58 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:29 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:06 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:38 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:44 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-05-13 17:35 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 17:56 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:00 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:11 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:29 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:47 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 22:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 19:56 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:08 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 21:20 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:02 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:16 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:02 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 15:58 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-14 09:19 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:29 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:40 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:04 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-14 11:12 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 12:23 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-14 10:55 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:32 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 20:44 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:03 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-13 20:17 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 20:57 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 08:55 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 08:11 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 14:25 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:54 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 09:09 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:43 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 00:05 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 19:30 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-05-13 16:32 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:00 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 16:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:18 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 17:31 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:36 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 20:58 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:40 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 12:58 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:35 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:17 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:04 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:27 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 19:49 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:27 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:13 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 18:53 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:16 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 19:43 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:52 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-17 18:23 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:59 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:47 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-05-13 20:06 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? mrdarrett@gmail.com - 2017-05-17 12:53 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 13:33 +1000
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 23:53 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:11 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:24 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 20:39 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:16 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:29 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:58 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 21:04 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:10 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 14:29 +1000
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 00:48 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 00:13 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:10 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 09:44 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 12:34 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 09:34 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 09:03 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 12:36 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 14:12 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 14:36 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 17:43 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 18:01 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 15:18 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 19:39 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-19 09:22 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 13:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-19 17:51 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-22 11:30 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-22 12:32 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-23 10:58 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 17:09 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-23 14:30 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-24 13:30 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 13:01 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-26 15:43 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:13 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-19 07:50 +1000
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 20:03 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 20:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> - 2017-05-14 12:19 +0800
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 22:08 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 22:20 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 18:10 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:31 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:28 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:53 +0100
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:30 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:17 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 11:49 +0100
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 12:56 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-19 18:05 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-20 08:36 +0100
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-20 15:58 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 10:21 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-23 13:26 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 17:41 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:37 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 00:45 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:52 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 00:52 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 15:16 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 08:08 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:33 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:50 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 01:32 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 08:05 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:19 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-25 08:57 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 11:49 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-25 18:04 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 13:15 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:15 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:28 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 04:40 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-05-31 06:19 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-31 18:08 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-25 18:30 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-25 13:15 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:54 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 12:23 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 13:44 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 13:47 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-24 00:18 +0000
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-24 00:24 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-24 09:20 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 12:38 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-06-24 12:11 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-24 13:04 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-06-29 14:20 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-29 15:37 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-06-30 11:05 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-30 08:13 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-06-30 12:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-06-30 03:43 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 21:07 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 18:59 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-26 22:17 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-27 09:37 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-27 09:30 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-27 18:23 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-26 08:47 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 13:43 -0700

csiph-web