Groups > sci.electronics.design > #460473

Re: What's wrong with "national health care"?

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: What's wrong with "national health care"?
Date	2017-05-16 01:32 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<ofe2nn$bkn$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	<of801n$5ej$1@dont-email.me> <of980q$12nh$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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On 5/14/2017 5:28 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 13/05/2017 23:10, Don Y wrote:
>> So, for the folks who live/work in places with "national health care"
>> (whatever THAT means), what's *wrong* with it?  I.e., what would you
>> wish was different/better?  How are your "death panels" implemented?
>
> I'll try to answer it if you try to understand.
>
> It is really quite simple. They do their very best to keep people alive
> until such time as it is not in the best interests of the patient to be
> kept alive for longer. A multidisciplinary team decides with input from
> the family when to switch from aggressive active intervention to purely
> palliative care and most times there is general agreement that it is
> time to end their suffering. If anything I'd say they generally err on
> the side of keeping people alive for a bit longer than is in their best
> interests assuming a gradual decline. I haven't had to go through the
> full process myself but I know people who have and they are full of
> praise for the medical team that looked after their loved ones.
>
> If there is a dispute between medics and family with a few really
> difficult cases where the family refuse to give up hope it goes to the
> high court which may take a couple of extra years.
>
> In America I have a feeling they will keep the patient alive for as long
> as the insurer will continue paying them to do so irrespective of the
> pain and suffering it may cause.

In the US the insurer has no say in the matter other than the 
effectiveness of treatment.  If the patient has reached a point where 
treatment provides no benefit the insurance company may not pay further, 
but a patient may continue treatment by paying themselves.

Funny that you say the decision in your country is up to the doctors and 
family.  In the US the patient (or the designated decision maker if the 
patient is not able to make decisions) is the only one who can make the 
choice of palliative care.  Medical care can not be forced on a patient.


> Contrary to popular belief spawned by the likes of casualty the
> statistics for defibrillation and resuscitation in hospital are not that
> great for the elderly and infirm (they are much worse than I had
> believed for super fit footballers even when the right kit is on hand).
>
>> How is care "rationed"?  What have you NOT been given (by way of care)
>> that you feel you ought to have?
>
> Nothing. I suppose an American might complain about being on a ward and
> having only one communal TV (thought these days each bed has one).

So I guess people in your country complained about having one communal 
TV in a ward?  Here insurance doesn't pay for TV.


> Care isn't really rationed you get what you need when you need it
> (within limits) - waiting times for scheduled surgery have been rising
> recently due to Tory cuts.

"Within limits" is an interesting term to use.  So care is limited..., 
you just can't explain how.  That's like "unlimited" internet access on 
a phone.  I'll just say it's *not* unlimited.


> There is some rationing by weight or fitness in that they are unwilling
> to do knee and hip replacements on obese smokers these days. This is
> somewhat controversial and not universal policy - it comes and goes.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-30437965

What does smoking have to do with hip replacements?


> Nice generally do a good job in deciding which drugs and procedures are
> most worthwhile for maximum benefit. A few experimental drugs at
> extortionate prices and dubious worth may not be available (an
> experiment funding them was a disaster with most achieving nothing more
> than bad side effects and burning money).
>
> They do triage at A&E so that serious cases wait the least time but they
> do need a hospital bed free before they can admit. Therein lies a
> problem not with the NHS but with the private for profit care homes.

It is a universal truth that you can't put a person in a bed if you 
don't have a bed to put them in.  Not sure how the lack of beds in 
hospitals relates to private care homes.


>> I.e., if you were starting from scratch to reinvent YOUR system, what
>> would you change?
>
> I would not have let them sell off their carparks to private operators
> to obtain a one off payment at the expense of permitting the carpark
> operators to price gouge patients and visitors to the hospitals.
>
> The weak point in the NHS is not the public hospitals but the interface
> to the privately run care home system for the elderly which results in
> hospitals being bed blocked by patients fit to be discharged but with no
> bed in a safe environment to be sent to. This is now a major issue.

Ah, now I get it.


> The care homes run at 100% occupancy rate for maximum profitability.
> There are a few hell holes that do have beds free but only patients with
> no relatives to stand up for them will ever end up there.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35481849

In the US bad facilities are shut down... eventually.  It helps 
tremendously if someone complains officially which is *very* hard for a 
patient to do.


> My mum spent nearly 3 months stuck in hospital waiting for a suitable
> nursing bed to become available in Manchester for instance. This is
> typical. The record I think is something like 2 years!
>
> I have to say that the care that both she and my father received in
> hospital was excellent (but it was at a top performing hospital).
>


-- 

Rick C

Thread

What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 15:10 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-05-13 22:54 +0000
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 15:59 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 00:34 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:11 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 08:49 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 02:00 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:14 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 08:31 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 15:56 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 09:04 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:02 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 16:10 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 01:12 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:57 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-18 10:42 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 14:10 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 10:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 15:48 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 13:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:47 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 15:40 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 00:03 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:39 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 08:09 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-05-18 09:13 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 09:37 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 04:57 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:58 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-17 08:21 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 13:28 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:13 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 10:14 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 13:31 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 19:17 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 17:47 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 23:45 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-19 19:57 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 23:35 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-20 07:42 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-20 00:48 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 09:24 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 12:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 17:44 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 16:49 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:29 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 19:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 11:32 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 01:16 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:04 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-24 07:40 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-05-31 11:57 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 09:05 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-20 05:12 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 21:07 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-23 19:04 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:46 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-24 12:56 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 12:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:12 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-24 16:11 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 19:49 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-26 15:41 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:44 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:18 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:54 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 23:00 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 15:32 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 15:01 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 00:52 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-05-15 19:17 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:26 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:01 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 21:12 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 13:51 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 20:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 15:50 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:27 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 22:00 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-05-14 18:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 16:20 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:05 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 17:49 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-13 18:02 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:25 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:28 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 19:39 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:05 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 20:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 18:19 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 21:53 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:18 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 12:51 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-20 11:54 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-20 12:05 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-22 08:58 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-22 11:58 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:29 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:06 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:38 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:44 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-05-13 17:35 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 17:56 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:00 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:11 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:29 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:47 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 22:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 19:56 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:08 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 21:20 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:02 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:16 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:02 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 15:58 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-14 09:19 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:29 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:40 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:04 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-14 11:12 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 12:23 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-14 10:55 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:32 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 20:44 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:03 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-13 20:17 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 20:57 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 08:55 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 08:11 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 14:25 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:54 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 09:09 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:43 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 00:05 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 19:30 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-05-13 16:32 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:00 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 16:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:18 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 17:31 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:36 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 20:58 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:40 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 12:58 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:35 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:17 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:04 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:27 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 19:49 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:27 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:13 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 18:53 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:16 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 19:43 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:52 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-17 18:23 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:59 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:47 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-05-13 20:06 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? mrdarrett@gmail.com - 2017-05-17 12:53 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 13:33 +1000
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 23:53 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:11 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:24 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 20:39 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:16 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:29 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:58 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 21:04 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:10 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 14:29 +1000
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 00:48 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 00:13 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:10 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 09:44 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 12:34 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 09:34 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 09:03 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 12:36 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 14:12 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 14:36 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 17:43 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 18:01 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 15:18 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 19:39 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-19 09:22 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 13:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-19 17:51 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-22 11:30 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-22 12:32 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-23 10:58 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 17:09 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-23 14:30 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-24 13:30 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 13:01 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-26 15:43 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:13 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-19 07:50 +1000
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 20:03 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 20:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> - 2017-05-14 12:19 +0800
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 22:08 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 22:20 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 18:10 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:31 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:28 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:53 +0100
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:30 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:17 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 11:49 +0100
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 12:56 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-19 18:05 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-20 08:36 +0100
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-20 15:58 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 10:21 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-23 13:26 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 17:41 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:37 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 00:45 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:52 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 00:52 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 15:16 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 08:08 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:33 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:50 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 01:32 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 08:05 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:19 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-25 08:57 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 11:49 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-25 18:04 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 13:15 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:15 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:28 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 04:40 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-05-31 06:19 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-31 18:08 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-25 18:30 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-25 13:15 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:54 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 12:23 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 13:44 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 13:47 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-24 00:18 +0000
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-24 00:24 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-24 09:20 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 12:38 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-06-24 12:11 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-24 13:04 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-06-29 14:20 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-29 15:37 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-06-30 11:05 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-30 08:13 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-06-30 12:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-06-30 03:43 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 21:07 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 18:59 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-26 22:17 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-27 09:37 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-27 09:30 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-27 18:23 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-26 08:47 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 13:43 -0700

csiph-web