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Re: Quasar redshift

From kensi <kkensington01@gmail.invalid>
Newsgroups sci.physics, alt.fan.cyberchicken
Subject Re: Quasar redshift
Date 2017-02-06 10:35 -0500
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <o7a549$4gk$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References <58988bf8$0$34580$c3e8da3$dbd57e7@news.astraweb.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 2/6/2017 9:45 AM, vallor wrote:
> Hey, I had an astrophysics question, and I understand there are
> astrophysicists roaming these hallowed halls...
>
> I'm wondering if the redshift seen with quasars might be due to something
> other than distance, such as perhaps the gravity of their black holes?
>
> I see here:
>
> https://phys.org/news/2010-04-discovery-quasars-dont-dilation-mystifies.html
[snip]

The more distant quasars are younger. Quasars are black holes. Younger 
ones are less massive; they haven't had time to eat as much stuff yet. 
Smaller things oscillate faster (think of a pendulum). The farther 
quasars are both faster (because they're smaller) and slower (because of 
time dilation).

The two effects roughly cancel out, since both are roughly linear in 
distance, assuming the growth of quasar black holes is roughly linear in 
time, which is reasonable -- it would be quadratic, but for the messy 
way black holes eat, accretion disks and jets and all, and that they end 
up hollowing out a volume around them -- a low-hanging fruit effect that 
contributes to growth early on, but depletes opportunities later.

Actually, supermassive black holes gain much more mass from gradually 
accumulating gas than from accumulating stars, gas that in turn accreted 
onto their host galaxies. As the universe expands, though, the 
intergalactic medium thins out, reducing the gas available to those 
supermassive black holes.

There are further complications; see e.g. 
https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/363/1/2/1300118/How-do-galaxies-get-their-gas

Hawkins's own paper suggests this as one possible explanation for his 
observations, by the way.

-- 
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain
the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks
"I get fooled all the time by the constant hosiery parade
in here."                                                     ~Checkmate

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Thread

Quasar redshift vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2017-02-06 14:45 +0000
  Re: Quasar redshift kensi <kkensington01@gmail.invalid> - 2017-02-06 10:35 -0500
    Re: Quasar redshift john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 07:50 -0800
    Re: Quasar redshift vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2017-02-06 16:28 +0000
      Re: Quasars are dying out because gravity itself is evaporating away. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-02-06 18:23 +0000
        Re: Entropy increases, eternally, without beginning or end. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-02-06 21:47 +0000
          Re: Entropy increases, eternally, without beginning or end. noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 13:59 -0800
        Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-02-07 16:31 -0500
          Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. kensi <kkensington01@gmail.invalid> - 2017-02-08 13:04 -0500
            Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 12:34 -0800
              Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2017-02-08 16:22 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:08 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 22:00 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-02-09 17:33 -0500
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 15:07 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-02-09 18:30 -0500
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2017-02-09 15:31 -0800
                whence clocks whould tickenn noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 19:58 -0800
                Re: whence clocks whould tickenn noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 00:35 -0800
            Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:14 -0800
              Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-02-09 21:05 -0500
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 08:54 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-02-11 17:54 -0500
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 00:58 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 03:25 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-02-13 16:04 -0500
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 03:26 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-02-13 16:05 -0500
            Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Kadaitcha Man <nospam.nospam.nospam@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 18:11 +1100
              Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> - 2017-02-10 23:35 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Kadaitcha Man <nospam.nospam.nospam@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 18:55 +1100
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> - 2017-02-11 00:11 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Kadaitcha Man <nospam.nospam.nospam@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 19:46 +1100
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> - 2017-02-11 00:50 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Kadaitcha Man <nospam.nospam.nospam@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 20:07 +1100
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> - 2017-02-11 01:12 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Kadaitcha Man <nospam.nospam.nospam@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 20:15 +1100
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> - 2017-02-11 01:19 -0800
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Kadaitcha Man <nospam.nospam.nospam@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 20:26 +1100
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Janithor <Janithor@comcast.net> - 2017-02-11 01:32 -0800
              Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. kensi <kkensington01@gmail.invalid> - 2017-02-11 05:06 -0500
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Kadaitcha Man <nospam.nospam.nospam@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 22:26 +1100
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. kensi <kkensington01@gmail.invalid> - 2017-02-11 06:44 -0500
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Kadaitcha Man <nospam.nospam.nospam@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 00:11 +1100
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Nadegda <nad318b404@gmail.invalid> - 2017-02-11 20:54 +0000
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Kadaitcha Man <nospam.nospam.nospam@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 09:45 +1100
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Nadegda <nad318b404@gmail.invalid> - 2017-02-11 23:17 +0000
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. Kadaitcha Man <nospam.nospam.nospam@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 15:43 +1100
                Re: Clocks tick _forward, not backwards. kensi <kkensington01@gmail.invalid> - 2017-02-12 05:09 -0500
  Quasar redshift HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 08:56 -0800
    Quasar redshift john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 09:12 -0800
    Re: Quasar redshift benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2017-02-07 16:53 -0500
      Re: Quasar redshift noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 15:47 -0800
    Re: Quasar redshift Serg Io <invliad@invalid.com> - 2017-02-07 18:47 -0600
      The dopplerianS noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 19:20 -0800

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