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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #461023
| From | wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | rec.arts.sf.written |
| Subject | Re: Childhood's End |
| Date | 2016-12-28 17:40 -0500 |
| Organization | PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC |
| Message-ID | <o41f07$cik$1@panix3.panix.com> (permalink) |
| References | <6zq0g7zr2wtj.6a9zgd3bcy1i.dlg@40tude.net> <o3s7bl$8p6$1@dont-email.me> <o3vdc6$o71$1@panix3.panix.com> <o3vfiq$i0n$1@dont-email.me> |
In article <o3vfiq$i0n$1@dont-email.me>,
David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> said:
> William December Starr wrote:
>> David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>>> Genetically removing the capacity for religion from the entire
>>> species would have all kinds of bizarre effects on human
>>> psychology. You'd be messing with people's abilities to imagine
>>> answers to questions when they answers aren't obvious,
>>
>> I don't see how. Rational extrapolation/interpolation from existing
>> incomplete data is hardly the same thing as irrational belief in a
>> claim that's unsupported by any existing data.
>
> Yeah it is. The difference is one of degree, not kind.
Both processes start with the act of considering existing data and
producing a conjecture therefrom, yes, but then they radically
diverge in what _I_ call a difference of kind: on one path we have
"and then either (a) test the conjecture in order to objectively
prove or disprove it[1] or (b) proceed with one's existence
holding onto the understanding that it _is_ just a conjecture"
while on the other side we have
"and then proceed with one's existence believing that the
conjecture is an objective fact."
-----------
*1: Technically, "{fail to disprove} or disprove it."
>>> or their ability to trust what other people say,
>>
>> I don't see why. The only faith that trust of another person
>> involves is faith in the likelihood that your
>> life-experience-influenced trust metric for the other person is
>> accurate enough for the matter at hand.
>
> The idea that we all could be born with an innate ability to
> accurately assess how reliable people are in general and the
> specific areas where generally reliable people become unreliable
> gives genetics too much credit. Some things are learned skills and
> any skill that can be learned can be mislearned, and will be
> particularly when there are no tangible consequences for screwing
> it up.
Okay. What's any of that got to do whether one does or does not
possess the propensity for believing that alleged objective facts,
for which there is no supporting objective evidence, are true?
>>> or even their ability to fear death or love their parents.
>>
>> And I don't see why either of those would be impossible, or even
>> difficult, for someone just because their brain isn't wired for
>> evidence-free belief in a pack of oogie-boogie stuff.
>
> Nobody's brain IS wired for it. Religion isn't the product of
> specific string of computer code much less built into the
> hardware. It, like all human behaviours is an emergent phenomenon
> generated by a confluence of instincts, and chemical and
> perceptual stimuli.
1. You know that in this context "hard-wired" doesn't refer to
physical wires. 2. I'll fine-tune it a bit: the _propensity_ for
accepting that evidence-free claims are objective truths is
hard-wired into humans, just waiting to be activated by stimuli
which apparently is quite common in the human environment.
> Instincts and chemicals that don't just cause religion but all
> kinds of other behaviours. Some atheists think that they are
> unbelievers because they were biologically incapable of believing
> in a deity even if they had been raised cut off from materialistic
> explanations for just about anything, but even if they were right,
> they only comprise a tiny minority not just of humanity, but of
> atheists.
>
> Personality traits are distributed on a bell curve. Genetic
> tinkering could move the apex of the curve, making people on
> average, angrier or less credulous, or more impulsive. But the
> only way you could eliminate the bell curve, is by cloning
> everyone so they'd all have the same genetic predispositions, and
> making sure their environmental influences aren't overly varied.
"Have the _same_ genetic predispositions" is inaccurate; all that's
needed is that they have -- more precisely, lack -- a certain subset
of the whole spectrum of genetic dispositions.
Arrange for that, and the text following your "and" becomes
unnecessary: the environmental stimulus can still exist; it just
can't flip switches that aren't there.
And: What's _any_ of that got to do with whether people who cannot
have religious faith -- the above-mentioned "ability to believe that
alleged objective facts, for which there is no supporting objective
evidence, are true" -- would or would not be capable of fearing
death or of loving their parents?
-- wds
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Re: Childhood's End mimus99 <mimus99@gmail.com> - 2016-12-21 17:13 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-22 06:20 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 14:41 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-12-22 17:53 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-12-25 01:06 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-12-25 17:49 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-23 12:31 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-12-25 07:40 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-22 06:57 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 16:11 +0000
Re: Childhood's End news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) - 2016-12-22 19:11 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 11:57 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 12:17 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 21:21 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 14:04 -0700
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-12-25 07:44 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-22 21:52 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2016-12-25 09:30 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 20:48 +0000
Re: Childhood's End "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2017-01-04 18:08 +0000
Re: Childhood's End ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2017-01-04 18:50 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 10:29 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-12-22 14:34 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 15:02 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 23:28 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 16:29 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-23 01:24 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 20:11 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-12-23 01:05 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 22:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 10:09 -0600
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-23 16:50 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 09:07 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:20 -0700
Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2016-12-31 20:40 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:24 -0600
Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 12:38 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 12:08 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:22 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2016-12-23 19:17 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 12:31 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 12:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 09:45 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 04:32 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-12-25 01:13 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 15:03 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-25 08:02 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 20:51 +0000
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-22 11:31 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-23 12:29 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-23 14:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-23 15:40 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 09:09 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-24 07:33 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 11:01 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 08:56 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 17:01 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-24 10:11 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-26 11:20 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-26 14:06 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-26 16:00 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-26 22:36 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-27 16:08 +0200
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 12:06 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 13:05 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 18:32 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 19:42 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 21:21 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-28 08:28 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:15 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 12:32 +0200
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 13:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:02 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 21:08 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-27 13:17 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:00 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 21:39 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 08:14 +0100
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 00:56 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 08:52 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-29 04:41 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 08:16 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 13:12 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 10:25 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 17:40 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 14:45 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 21:30 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 13:52 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 12:54 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 18:11 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:16 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2017-01-01 09:56 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 21:33 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 00:42 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:46 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 09:42 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 12:48 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 13:14 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 08:20 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 07:31 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-29 05:49 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 14:47 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:55 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-12-29 12:13 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 20:37 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-30 14:55 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-12-31 10:12 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2017-01-01 19:31 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-02 10:22 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-03 21:59 -0600
Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2017-01-03 21:33 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2017-01-03 22:13 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-04 00:46 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-04 02:02 -0700
Re: Childhood's End hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2017-01-04 02:39 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-04 11:29 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-06 20:42 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2017-01-07 00:01 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-07 10:57 -0800
Re: Childhood's End ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2017-01-07 19:08 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-07 15:46 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-07 05:53 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2017-01-07 20:43 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2017-01-01 12:17 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2017-01-02 13:20 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:49 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 20:41 +0000
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 12:26 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 12:50 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:21 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com> - 2017-01-01 12:31 -0700
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 16:11 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 18:34 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 23:40 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 07:41 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 12:27 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 12:55 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-30 15:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-30 14:35 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-31 13:24 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-24 13:08 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 18:52 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-24 14:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 21:37 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 17:02 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 20:20 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 16:50 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 23:00 +0000
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-25 17:00 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-25 19:06 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 22:37 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 02:37 +0000
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 21:58 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 20:07 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 06:18 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 21:53 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 16:52 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 23:04 +0000
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-25 19:01 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 23:15 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 04:22 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-25 22:03 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 07:01 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-26 11:39 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 22:09 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 14:43 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 21:36 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-24 14:34 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-24 15:43 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 20:18 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 09:48 +0000
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