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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #461389
| From | Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | rec.arts.sf.written |
| Subject | Re: Childhood's End |
| Date | 2017-01-01 19:31 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <20170101a@crcomp.net> (permalink) |
| References | (1 earlier) <o42vmv$lbv$1@panix3.panix.com> <4b8a6cpptpfr4ki509ie5n4pkuhc3mb9lj@4ax.com> <8ac9342c-d92a-41c8-9f73-95c19466b7f8@googlegroups.com> <o46e44$p1l$1@panix3.panix.com> <12906830-a264-406f-9004-4bebe2a59ade@googlegroups.com> |
Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> wrote:
> On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 11:55:50 AM UTC-8, William December
> Starr wrote:
>
>> In article <8ac9342c-d92a-41c8-9f73-95c19466b7f8@googlegroups.com>,
>> Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> said:
>
>> > Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
>
>> >> I worry that there are people who *don't* see that those are
>> >> different things. It would explain why people come up with the
>> >> "but science is a religion too - checkmate, atheists!" rubbish.
>
>> > Well, I think they're different things, *and* I'm an atheist, and
>> > yet I think science is a religion. Frankly, I don't think it's
>> > useful to define "religion" in a way that excludes "science",
>> > except that if your use for a definition of "religion" is to help
>> > you heap scorn upon religion, then yes, a definition that excludes
>> > "science" will be more helpful for *that*.
>
>> For me, a _necessary_ component of a religion is that it calls upon
>> its followers to believe woo-woo stuff that exists outside the realm
>> of the proveable or disproveable. E.g., God.
>
>
> Hmmm. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure no such belief is a
> necessary component of Confucianism. Maybe not Shinto either.
> Buddhism is more complicated; one can argue that, for example, karma
> (which doesn't mean, in Buddhism, what you probably think it means)
> is "woo-woo stuff", and even the Buddhist version appears to be
> "outside the realm of the ... disproveable". Taoism - well,
> theoretical Taoism doesn't look even slightly "woo-woo" to me, but
> practical Taoism is nothing but "woo-woo", so who knows? (Practical
> Shinto introduces some of this too, but not nearly as much.)
>
> Moving on to the theistic religions, I'm not sure to what extent
> either Judaism or Hinduism cares about belief as opposed to practice;
> I think in both some beliefs are *forbidden*, notably Christianity,
> but I'm not sure any are *required*. (You can definitely be a Jew
> without repeating or believing the Shema, just not a particularly
> *good* Jew.) The only other surviving ancient cult outside East
> Asia known to me is Zoroastrianism; it wouldn't surprise me if they
> cared more about belief, but I'm not sure, and again, since most
> surviving Zoroastrians are now a caste in India, it may be different
> in reality from in theory or in the past.
>
> The missionary religions (except maybe Buddhism) - Christianity, Islam,
> Manichaeism if there are any left, most of the newer thingummies like
> Sikhs, Bahai, and so forth - do seem to care about belief in the
> undisproveable. An older example, Jainism (probably older than
> Buddhism and much less missionarily effective), may not, but does
> feature lots of karma theory.
>
>> Science generally doesn't do that.
>
> As I've argued here before, the thing science does best is
> epistemology. It has this in common with, in particular, Buddhism.
> It's also pre-eminent in cosmology and other such explanatory
> fields, even though it insists that nothing it says in these is
> final. It doesn't do metaphysics well at all, doesn't care about
> eschatology (but incidentally offers a really bleak one), is
> somewhat deficient in ritual aka practice (though things like hand-
> washing are closely comparable with undisputedly religious rituals),
> and its focus is on this life rather than the hereafter, like
> Judaism, Confucianism, and Shinto at least.
>
> Basically, I think it's silly to come up with a definition of
> "religion" that excludes most East Asian religions, but one that
> includes them has a hard time excluding science. My working
> definition of "religion" is one I got from Walter Kauffmann, better
> known as a translator of Nietzsche than as a philosopher in his own
> right; he argued, more or less, that a religion is a *language* for
> thinking and talking about fundamental things. I'm not wedded to
> this definition, but if for the sake of argument you accept it,
> then science is quite obviously such a language. So there's at
> least one reasonable way one can argue that science is a religion.
> More to the point, I am an actual human being who considers science
> *my* religion, so I'm a little baffled to be told that I'm not
> allowed to think that.
>
> I don't expect to convince anyone this time, any more than I did last
> time ten years or so ago, but I hope I've anyway made the case a bit
> better.
Thank you for your eloquent interesting post. Sometimes your writing is
difficult for me to understand. (That's a good thing BTW.) This isn't
one of those times.
You say that science is your religion. Bravo! You know what? As of this
moment it's my second religion.
There's a behavioral aspect to my own definition of science. A scientist
has to put it in writing (or make a drawing or it). _Illustrated Guide
to Home Chemistry Experiments_ (Thompson) says it all for me:
"Write it down" [said Thompson's father after Thompson
becomes absorbed in a chemistry set given to him as a Christmas
present during his childhood]. "A scientist records what he
observes. If you don't work methodically and write down what
you observe, you're not a scientist. You're just playing
around."
_Cryptionomicon_ (Stephenson) is a complex story. It's complexity forced
me to record my observations of the story as it was read. Today my
effort pays off, because it enables me to share this passage:
Randy and Amy had spent a full hour talking to Scott and
Laura last night; they were the only people who made any effort
to make Amy feel welcome. Randy hadn't the faintest idea what
these people thought of him and what he had done, but he could
sense right away that, essentially *this was not the issue*
because even if they thought he had done something evil, they
at least had a framework, a sort of procedure manual, for
dealing with transgressions. To translate it into UNIX system
administration terms (Randy's fundamental metaphor for just
about everything), the post-modern, politically correct atheists
were like people who had suddenly found themselves in charge of
a big and unfathomably complex computer system (viz. society)
with no documentation or instructions of any kind, and so whose
only way to keep the thing running was to invent and enforce
certain rules with a kind of neo-Puritanical rigor, because
they were at a loss to deal with any deviations from what they
saw as the norm. Wheres people who were wired into a church
were like UNIX system administrators who, while they might not
understand everything, at least had some documentation, some
FAQs and How-tos and README files, providing some guidance on
what to do when things got out of whack. They were, in other
words, capable of displaying adaptability.
Thank you,
--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Among scientists are collectors, classifiers, and compulsive tidiers-up;
many are detectives by temperament and many are explorers; some are
artists and others artisans. There are poet-scientists and philosopher-
scientists and even a few mystics. - Sir Peter Brian Medawar
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Re: Childhood's End mimus99 <mimus99@gmail.com> - 2016-12-21 17:13 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-22 06:20 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 14:41 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-12-22 17:53 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-12-25 01:06 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-12-25 17:49 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-23 12:31 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-12-25 07:40 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-22 06:57 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 16:11 +0000
Re: Childhood's End news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) - 2016-12-22 19:11 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 11:57 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 12:17 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 21:21 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 14:04 -0700
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-12-25 07:44 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-22 21:52 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2016-12-25 09:30 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 20:48 +0000
Re: Childhood's End "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2017-01-04 18:08 +0000
Re: Childhood's End ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2017-01-04 18:50 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 10:29 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-12-22 14:34 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 15:02 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 23:28 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 16:29 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-23 01:24 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 20:11 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-12-23 01:05 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 22:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 10:09 -0600
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-23 16:50 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 09:07 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:20 -0700
Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2016-12-31 20:40 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:24 -0600
Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 12:38 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 12:08 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:22 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2016-12-23 19:17 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 12:31 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 12:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 09:45 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 04:32 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-12-25 01:13 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 15:03 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-25 08:02 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 20:51 +0000
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-22 11:31 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-23 12:29 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-23 14:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-23 15:40 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 09:09 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-24 07:33 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 11:01 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 08:56 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 17:01 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-24 10:11 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-26 11:20 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-26 14:06 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-26 16:00 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-26 22:36 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-27 16:08 +0200
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 12:06 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 13:05 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 18:32 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 19:42 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 21:21 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-28 08:28 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:15 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 12:32 +0200
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 13:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:02 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 21:08 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-27 13:17 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:00 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 21:39 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 08:14 +0100
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 00:56 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 08:52 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-29 04:41 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 08:16 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 13:12 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 10:25 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 17:40 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 14:45 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 21:30 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 13:52 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 12:54 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 18:11 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:16 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2017-01-01 09:56 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 21:33 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 00:42 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:46 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 09:42 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 12:48 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 13:14 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 08:20 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 07:31 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-29 05:49 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 14:47 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:55 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-12-29 12:13 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 20:37 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-30 14:55 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-12-31 10:12 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2017-01-01 19:31 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-02 10:22 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-03 21:59 -0600
Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2017-01-03 21:33 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2017-01-03 22:13 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-04 00:46 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-04 02:02 -0700
Re: Childhood's End hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2017-01-04 02:39 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-04 11:29 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-06 20:42 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2017-01-07 00:01 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-07 10:57 -0800
Re: Childhood's End ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2017-01-07 19:08 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-07 15:46 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-07 05:53 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2017-01-07 20:43 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2017-01-01 12:17 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2017-01-02 13:20 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:49 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 20:41 +0000
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 12:26 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 12:50 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:21 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com> - 2017-01-01 12:31 -0700
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 16:11 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 18:34 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 23:40 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 07:41 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 12:27 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 12:55 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-30 15:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-30 14:35 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-31 13:24 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-24 13:08 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 18:52 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-24 14:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 21:37 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 17:02 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 20:20 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 16:50 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 23:00 +0000
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-25 17:00 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-25 19:06 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 22:37 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 02:37 +0000
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 21:58 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 20:07 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 06:18 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 21:53 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 16:52 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 23:04 +0000
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-25 19:01 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 23:15 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 04:22 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-25 22:03 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 07:01 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-26 11:39 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 22:09 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 14:43 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 21:36 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-24 14:34 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-24 15:43 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 20:18 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 09:48 +0000
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