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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #460510

Re: Childhood's End

From Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net>
Newsgroups rec.arts.sf.written
Subject Re: Childhood's End
Date 2016-12-22 17:53 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20161222a@crcomp.net> (permalink)
References <6zq0g7zr2wtj.6a9zgd3bcy1i.dlg@40tude.net> <79ul5chll6emql1mu1kj2lgno1g1oloso8@4ax.com> <e5ycj6tujhp2$.kseoctlqepfi.dlg@40tude.net> <34646c74-b200-4ec2-83b6-1c64977b02ea@googlegroups.com> <oILCt0.ny1@kithrup.com>

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Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <34646c74-b200-4ec2-83b6-1c64977b02ea@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc  <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 3:13:07 PM UTC-7, mimus99 wrote:
>>
>>> I still rate _ Candy _ (1968) as the greatest SF flick of all time.
>>
>>That wasn't science-fiction! It was a religious movie; she was clearly an
>>avatar! Something like Jesus, or Buddha, or at least an angel.
>>
>>However, that just indicates the dangers of classifying movies - or novels - by
>>their initial premise. Thus, one really *should* shelve the Pern novels, in a
>>book store, under fantasy instead of science fiction, because of *the type of
>>reader they will entertain*, instead of under science fiction on a strictly
>>technical criterion.
>>
>>And, thus, Candy gets stuck in its usual classification of "sex comedy" rather
>>than science fiction, fantasy, or religion.
>
> Oh dear.
>
> What you are doing is presenting your personal system of
> classification, and either expecting or demanding that we all use it
> too.  This cannot end well.
>
> Old-timers here will remember many, many discussions about where
> (also whether) to draw the boundary between fantasy and science
> fiction.  Generally, most of us came to an agreement that there
> isn't a boundary, there's a transition zone, a sort of Rhenish
> fan within which which every reader draws his/her own boundary.
>
> (One person posted a link to a short essay in which someone
> presented the analogy, not of separate entities, not even of a
> spectrum, but of a three- (at least) dimensional landscape having
> peaks consisting of stories that were obviously examples of type
> 1 or type 2 or ... , and valleys consisting of stories that were
> just as clearly hybrids of two or more types.  If I can find the
> link, I'll re-post it; it was an interesting viewpoint.
>
> And we once had a rather heated discussion between one guy who
> insisted that sword-and-sorcery was *not* a variety of fantasy,
> and the rest of us who felt it was.
>
> In the end, I said,
>
>> [T]here would appear to be a middle-of-
>> the-road definition of any term that is generally accepted by the
>> group, and definitions further out in one direction or another
>> that are held by a few, and this will generate discussion.  The
>> discussion can stop short of "lambasting" if both sides try to
>> keep their language moderate and their tone polite, as, "Well, I
>> just don't consider x an example of Y," and "Well, you're going
>> to get a fair amount of disagreement then, because most of us
>> do."
>
> A corollary might say, "Fewer feathers will be ruffled if you say
> 'This is how I see it' instead of 'This is how it is.'

That's sage advice. This world needs a "peaks and valleys in the land of
SF" illustration, complete with two Time Travel Tetons (peaks) and a
valley betwixt them.

The first Time Travel peak occurs in the Fantastic region. At it's
summit sits a story such "Bob Dylan, Troy Johnson, and the Speed Queen"
(Wilson), which restricts time travel to a one way trip to the past.

The second Time Travel peak occurs in the Scientific region. At it's
summit sits a story such as _The Peace War_ (Vinge), which restricts
time travel to a one way journey to the future.

?Most? Time Travel stories sit in the valley betwixt the peaks because
the travel goes both forwards and backwards in time. Representative
stories found in the vast valley include: _The Time Machine_ (Wells),
_The Time Traveler's Wife_ (Niffenegger), and _Forever War_ (Haldeman).

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

What is this life if, full of care,
We have not time to stand and stare?
- Davies

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Thread

Re: Childhood's End mimus99 <mimus99@gmail.com> - 2016-12-21 17:13 -0500
  Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-22 06:20 -0800
    Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 14:41 +0000
      Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-12-22 17:53 +0000
        Re: Childhood's End Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-12-25 01:06 -0700
          Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-12-25 17:49 +0000
      Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-23 12:31 -0800
      Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-12-25 07:40 -0600
    Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-22 06:57 -0800
      Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 16:11 +0000
        Re: Childhood's End news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) - 2016-12-22 19:11 +0000
        Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 11:57 -0500
      Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 12:17 -0700
        Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 21:21 +0000
          Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 14:04 -0700
            Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-12-25 07:44 -0600
        Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-22 21:52 -0800
      Re: Childhood's End David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2016-12-25 09:30 -0800
        Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 20:48 +0000
          Re: Childhood's End "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2017-01-04 18:08 +0000
            Re: Childhood's End ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2017-01-04 18:50 +0000
    Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 10:29 -0700
      Re: Childhood's End Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-12-22 14:34 -0800
        Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 15:02 -0700
          Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 23:28 +0000
            Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 16:29 -0700
              Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-23 01:24 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 20:11 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-12-23 01:05 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 22:23 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 10:09 -0600
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-23 16:50 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 09:07 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:20 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2016-12-31 20:40 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:24 -0600
                Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 12:38 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 12:08 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:22 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2016-12-23 19:17 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 12:31 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 12:03 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:23 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 09:45 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 04:32 +0000
            Re: Childhood's End Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-12-25 01:13 -0700
              Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 15:03 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-25 08:02 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 20:51 +0000
    Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-22 11:31 -0700
      Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-23 12:29 -0800
        Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-23 14:23 -0700
          Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-23 15:40 -0800
            Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 09:09 -0500
              Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-24 07:33 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 11:01 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 08:56 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 17:01 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-24 10:11 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-26 11:20 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-26 14:06 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-26 16:00 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-26 22:36 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-27 16:08 +0200
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 12:06 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 13:05 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 18:32 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 19:42 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 21:21 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-28 08:28 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:15 -0600
                Re: Childhood's End Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 12:32 +0200
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 13:23 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:02 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 21:08 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-27 13:17 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:00 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 21:39 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 08:14 +0100
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 00:56 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 08:52 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-29 04:41 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 08:16 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 13:12 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 10:25 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 17:40 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 14:45 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 21:30 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 13:52 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 12:54 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 18:11 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:16 -0600
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2017-01-01 09:56 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 21:33 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 00:42 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:46 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 09:42 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 12:48 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 13:14 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 08:20 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 07:31 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-29 05:49 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 14:47 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:55 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-12-29 12:13 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 20:37 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-30 14:55 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-12-31 10:12 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2017-01-01 19:31 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-02 10:22 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-03 21:59 -0600
                Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2017-01-03 21:33 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2017-01-03 22:13 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-04 00:46 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-04 02:02 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2017-01-04 02:39 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-04 11:29 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-06 20:42 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2017-01-07 00:01 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-07 10:57 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2017-01-07 19:08 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-07 15:46 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-07 05:53 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2017-01-07 20:43 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2017-01-01 12:17 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2017-01-02 13:20 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:49 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 20:41 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 12:26 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 12:50 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:21 -0600
                Re: Childhood's End Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com> - 2017-01-01 12:31 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 16:11 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 18:34 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 23:40 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 07:41 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 12:27 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 12:55 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-30 15:03 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-30 14:35 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-31 13:24 -0500
              Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-24 13:08 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 18:52 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-24 14:03 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 21:37 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 17:02 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 20:20 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 16:50 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 23:00 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-25 17:00 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-25 19:06 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 22:37 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 02:37 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 21:58 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 20:07 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 06:18 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 21:53 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 16:52 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 23:04 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-25 19:01 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 23:15 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 04:22 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-25 22:03 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 07:01 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-26 11:39 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 22:09 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:03 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 14:43 -0500
                Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 21:36 +0000
                Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-24 14:34 -0800
                Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-24 15:43 -0700
                Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 20:18 -0500
          Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 09:48 +0000

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