Re: Continue with learning C

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Continue with learning C
Date	2016-09-18 16:38 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<nrm8ss$dki$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <nrf0r3$ud8$1@dont-email.me> <ba6477d8-59a2-4a24-8b52-49a52c0c4691@googlegroups.com> <nrkd4e$f1q$1@dont-email.me> <8b6d5227-f102-4ca9-b964-45b65485c2dc@googlegroups.com> <nrkm32$dj4$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

On 18/09/16 02:11, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 18/09/16 01:08, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 10:38:35 PM UTC+1, Richard
>> Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 17/09/16 05:02, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 9:38:10 PM UTC+1, Richard
>>>> Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If experienced people are constantly telling you you're going too fast
>>>>> and you keep going faster, eventually they'll give up trying to advise
>>>>> you. By all means go as fast as you can, but not any faster. That way
>>>>> lies slapdash make-do-and-mend programming.
>>>>>
>>>> Depends. You can normally sell software with a few bugs in it.
>>>
>>> Don't you find that to be rather embarrassing?
>>>
>> As games programmer we weren't allowed to admit to any bugs.
> 
> That sentence, and indeed the rest of your reply, explains in large part
> why users have to put up with shoddy software.
> 

As the saying goes: "good, cheap and fast - pick any two".  Users have
to put up with shoddy software because they are not willing to pay the
costs (in money or in time waiting) required to get the final bugs found
and fixed.

When you look at the cost of development of some software, and the
expected cost of bugs (taking into account the consequences of the bugs,
the likelihood of the bug having an effect, the lost sales, the hit to
your reputation, the cost of recalls, etc.), then you can figure out if
it makes sense to fix the bugs.

Generally, it is very difficult to figure out how much it will cost to
fix a known bug, or to write good enough test suites in order to spot
unknown bugs.  And it is even more difficult to figure out how much it
will cost, in total, to leave the bug in.

But what /is/ known, without any doubt, is that there comes a point
where it is cheaper overall to leave a final fraction of bugs in the
software than to put more effort into catching the last ones.

For small enough pieces of software, or for software that is so critical
that the cost of bugs is extremely high, the rounding may mean that you
end up with zero bugs.  But for complex commodity software, you
absolutely expect to ship with bugs.  It is not embarrassing - it is
fundamental probability and economics.  To use Malcolm's earlier
example, the customer in the USA does not want to pay twice as much for
his word processor in order to be sure that customers in Israel can mix
Hebrew and English without problems.

Thread

Continue with learning C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 05:11 -0700
  Re: Continue with learning C "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 05:29 -0700
  Re: Continue with learning C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-09-15 15:01 +0100
  Re: Continue with learning C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-15 15:32 +0100
    Re: Continue with learning C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 08:10 -0700
    Re: Continue with learning C luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 12:06 -0700
      Re: Continue with learning C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-15 21:38 +0100
        Re: Continue with learning C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-09-16 21:02 -0700
          Re: Continue with learning C "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-09-17 08:03 -0500
          Re: Continue with learning C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-17 22:38 +0100
            Re: Continue with learning C "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-09-17 18:14 -0400
              Re: Continue with learning C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-09-18 10:47 +0000
              Re: Continue with learning C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2016-09-19 01:25 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-19 20:51 +1200
                Re: Continue with learning C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-09-19 09:49 -0400
                Re: Continue with learning C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-19 15:15 +0100
                Re: Continue with learning C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-19 11:39 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2016-09-20 09:55 +0800
                Re: Continue with learning C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-20 08:50 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2016-09-20 18:04 +0800
                Re: Continue with learning C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-20 13:25 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2016-09-20 20:18 +0800
                Re: Continue with learning C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-20 15:25 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-09-20 08:45 -0400
                Re: Continue with learning C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2016-09-20 22:05 +0800
                Re: Continue with learning C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-09-20 10:56 -0400
                Re: Continue with learning C Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-19 18:55 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 01:08 +0300
            Re: Continue with learning C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-09-17 17:08 -0700
              Re: Continue with learning C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-18 01:11 +0100
                Re: Continue with learning C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-09-17 21:32 -0400
                Re: Continue with learning C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-18 16:27 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-09-18 16:08 -0400
                Re: Continue with learning C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-09-18 07:30 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-09-18 16:07 -0400
                Re: Continue with learning C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-18 16:38 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-18 16:37 +0100
                Re: Continue with learning C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2016-09-18 23:54 +0800
                Re: Continue with learning C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-09-18 16:56 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-18 17:05 +0100
                Re: Continue with learning C "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-09-18 12:28 -0400
                Re: Continue with learning C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-09-18 17:00 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2016-09-19 01:40 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-09-19 08:55 -0500
                Re: Continue with learning C "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-09-18 11:31 -0500
                Re: Continue with learning C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-19 07:25 +1200
                Re: Continue with learning C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-09-18 20:36 +0100
                Re: Continue with learning C "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-09-18 15:45 -0400
                Re: Continue with learning C Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-19 18:58 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-09-18 09:55 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-09-18 10:12 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-09-18 13:11 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-18 21:54 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-18 15:58 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-19 07:09 +0100
                Re: Continue with learning C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-19 10:04 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-19 10:38 +0100
                Re: Continue with learning C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-19 13:29 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-19 08:04 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2016-09-20 09:33 +0800
                Re: Continue with learning C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-19 20:47 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-20 09:00 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2016-09-20 17:59 +0800
                Re: Continue with learning C Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-09-20 17:24 +0000
                Re: Continue with learning C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-20 08:57 +0200
                Re: Continue with learning C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-20 10:53 -0700
                Re: Continue with learning C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2016-09-19 13:19 +0800
                Re: Continue with learning C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-09-19 01:30 +0100
      Re: Continue with learning C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2016-09-19 01:15 -0700
  Re: Continue with learning C Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2016-09-15 12:38 -0700
  Re: Continue with learning C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2016-09-21 11:42 -0700
    Re: Continue with learning C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2016-09-21 12:40 -0700
      Re: Continue with learning C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2016-09-21 12:49 -0700
      Re: Continue with learning C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 14:47 -0700
        Re: Continue with learning C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 14:59 -0700

csiph-web