Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language
Date	2016-07-29 01:14 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<nne3kh$rl3$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <nnbh76$kc$1@gioia.aioe.org> <20006afa-360c-4642-90d1-82f54ab020c2@googlegroups.com> <d1efdc92-0b98-4e49-baaa-821d1cf81815@googlegroups.com> <nncsau$bbp$1@dont-email.me> <4b5deb70-4e84-405b-b23b-97f7d8950975@googlegroups.com>

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On 28/07/16 14:24, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 8:03:50 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>> On 28/07/16 03:03, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 8:20:42 PM UTC-4, supe...@casperkitty.com wrote:
>>>> On many historical or embedded compilers, if one has a pointer to an array
>>>> of uint8_t which is known to be 32-bit aligned, one can cast the pointer
>>>> to uint32_t* and then process elements four at a time and achieve a 4x
>>>> speed boost; on platforms which support uint64_t, if the array is known to
>>>> be 64-bit aligned, casting to uint64_t* and processing elements eight at a
>>>> time may offer an additional speed boost.
>>>>
>>>> Such code is not supported by gcc, however,
>>>
>>> How is this not supported by gcc?  Or any C compiler through the cast?
>>
>> What he means is that in C, casting a uint16_t pointer to a uint32_t
>> pointer and using that to access the data is undefined behaviour
>> (assuming uint16_t is not the same type as unsigned char).  For some
>> reason, known only to himself, Supercat believes that older C standards
>> (pre C89, I think) /did/ allow this sort of thing.  He also believes
>> that many older compilers and embedded compilers also allow it.
>
> I can see that being a constraint in the case of a single local variable
> being accessed, but if you have an array of uint16_t quantities that
> you're trying to access using the wider 32-bit or 64-bit pointers, then
> unless the compiler is doing some really funky internal alignment of
> data, it should be accessible through the larger pointer.

Certainly it is unlikely that the compiler will see a benefit in doing 
something unexpected with code that uses such pointer casting to access 
arrays of data.  But there are no guarantees.  The compiler /could/ note 
that what you are doing has no defined effect in C, and therefore it is 
safe (and very efficient) to simply omit that piece of code.

Note that I don't really agree on the aliasing rules here - I think it 
would be better if C had defined accesses through pointer casts in the 
"obvious" way.  But C is what it is - you either live with it, use a 
different language (even if you have to write it yourself!), or use 
compilers or flags that give you what you want.  (For gcc, the 
"-fno-strict-alias" flag will do this - as will the "may_alias" 
attribute on the pointer types.)

> The only case
> I can see where it would generate undefined behavior (apart from strictly
> standard-dictated reasons, which may be the only consideration at work
> here, and if so I withdraw my entire comment) would be in a case like
> this:
>
>      uint16_t a;
>      float b;
>      uint32_t* p;
>
>      p = &a;
>      *p = 5;   // What would happen here would be undefined
>
> In most 32-bit and later compilers I can see this actually working
> because unless the items are packed, they will typically align to
> the largest natural size on the stack.  But, in other cases, it
> would fail.

In many cases, this will fail horribly.  You have no guarantee at all 
that there is padding after "a" to give you the 32 bits of space.  One 
obvious case would be if this code were preceded by "uint16_t x;" where 
the "x" is on the 4-byte boundary.  Then there would be no padding 
before "b".  But more generally, the compiler can re-arrange the order 
of the variables - some compilers do that, precisely to eliminate 
padding and generate more efficient code.

>
>> As has been pointed out to him endless times, C has never defined this
>> behaviour.  Later C standards have clarified the situation a little, but
>> not changed it.
>>
>> And while it is certainly true that many compilers will implement such
>> casts and accesses in the way that seems obvious, I don't know of any
>> that guarantee such behaviour.
>
> I agree.  But, I think for a particular compiler, or genre of compilers
> (such as x86 on standard OSes), it is reasonable to rely on the specific
> implementation-allowed behavior in such cases, knowing that it could
> then theoretically break at any point.  And if you are doing such things,
> it would be worth incorporating unit tests into your compiled project to
> validate that it is continually working as expected.

That's fine.  Portability is sometimes an issue, sometimes not.  If you 
know your compiler behaves in a particular manner, then I think it is 
fair enough to rely on that.  Whether you get that knowledge through 
testing, documentation, talking to the developers, etc., is up to you 
and the needs of the project.

>
>>> Any algorithm written in C can exploit this ... so I must not be understanding
>>> your point above.
>>
>> Don't worry - you are not the only one who has trouble understanding
>> some of Supercat's points (or why he feels they need to be brought up in
>> every single thread).
>
> I think Supercat has demonstrated a comprehensive knowledge and insight
> into compiler architecture ... and from the position of understanding the
> philosophy of compiler architectures.  He, like any of us, may have some
> of the details relating to real-world things incorrect in his thinking,
> but that's just a matter of being corrected, and not a fundamental flaw
> in the person, or in the approach.
>
> I admire Supercat in his posts.  And I have learned a lot from the many
> discussions they've spawned.
>

Supercat certainly makes some good points about code that looks like it 
is valid, but has surprising undefined behaviour.  But he makes 
inaccurate, or downright incorrect, points about how he thinks the 
standards used to be, his belief that all compilers used to behave in a 
certain fashion, and his belief that modern compiler developers are 
maliciously unhelpful regarding undefined behaviour.

But if we all agreed, what point would there be in a discussion group?  :-)

Thread

IEEE: C is the first programming language jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-27 22:36 +0200
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-27 16:42 -0700
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-28 01:47 +0200
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-27 17:20 -0700
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-27 18:03 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 00:43 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 05:12 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 05:41 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 06:02 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 06:26 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 06:45 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 09:11 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 09:30 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-28 14:03 +0200
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 05:24 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 01:14 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 18:27 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 12:08 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-29 11:37 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 12:51 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-29 08:36 -0600
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 05:32 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 14:42 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 06:59 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 16:08 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-29 09:16 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 09:21 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 17:55 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 11:00 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 11:48 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 21:12 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 19:39 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 14:56 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 08:54 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-01 10:30 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 08:13 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 12:18 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 07:34 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 14:10 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-29 23:36 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 16:04 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-30 11:22 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-30 01:09 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 08:08 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 21:16 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 22:13 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-02 13:33 +0100
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 08:11 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 07:36 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 07:51 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 08:19 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 10:18 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 11:16 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 11:49 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 12:37 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 13:15 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 14:05 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 15:53 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 18:03 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 10:50 -0700
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-07-28 10:50 +0200
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-28 08:11 -0500
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 07:46 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-28 16:50 +0200
            Re: Setting architectural features in stone Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-01 11:18 +0200
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 05:37 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 14:02 +0100
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 07:05 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 16:04 +0100
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ivan Godard <ivan@millcomputing.com> - 2016-08-01 09:26 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 10:12 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-01 10:21 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 11:01 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-01 11:44 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-02 12:05 +0200
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-01 15:48 +0000
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-08-02 20:09 -0400
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-03 06:42 +0000
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-03 11:02 +0100
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ivan Godard <ivan@millcomputing.com> - 2016-08-03 03:15 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-03 11:53 +0000
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-03 08:57 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-03 10:52 +0200
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-03 11:09 +0100
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-03 08:51 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 10:51 +0100
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-01 13:13 +0200
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 05:27 -0700
          Setting architectural features in stone Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-08-01 10:00 -0700
            Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-02 10:29 +0000
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-01 16:29 -0400
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 15:53 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-04 16:37 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-04 16:07 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-04 20:38 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-04 23:52 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:00 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-06 03:12 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-06 21:48 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-06 20:07 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 10:03 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-05 13:09 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:38 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 11:24 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 15:28 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 08:25 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 16:36 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 08:41 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 16:45 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 09:41 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 19:45 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 09:47 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 16:11 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-06 21:50 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-06 19:12 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-06 22:38 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 14:06 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 10:04 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 17:27 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 20:24 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 21:30 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 17:03 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 21:36 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-08 15:11 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 09:02 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-09 07:35 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-08-08 16:00 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-09 08:07 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-08 21:22 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 11:08 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-08-08 13:39 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 11:54 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-09 08:50 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 15:19 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-09 09:14 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 19:22 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-08-09 11:12 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2016-08-09 15:25 +0000
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 19:50 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 16:44 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-09 17:38 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-09 08:51 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 20:06 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 11:57 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-09 08:51 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 12:15 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-08 11:57 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-08 23:04 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 15:20 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 09:27 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 09:21 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 17:33 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 14:35 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-05 14:06 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 14:37 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 13:53 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 14:09 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 10:08 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 17:34 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 21:37 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-07 19:18 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 12:31 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-08 03:55 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-08 08:28 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-08 09:44 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-08 10:13 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 07:51 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:39 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 11:27 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 15:29 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 08:38 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:40 -0400
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-28 21:27 +0200
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 00:19 +0200
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-01 11:49 +0200
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-28 10:01 +0000
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-07-28 01:57 -0500
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 07:27 -0700
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-28 09:06 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 09:39 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-28 11:56 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-28 15:19 -0400
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 12:15 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 05:25 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-01 07:37 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 08:21 -0700
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-27 17:17 -0700
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-28 14:17 +0200
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-28 18:43 +0200
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-28 18:58 +0200
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-31 21:46 +0200
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-01 16:37 +1200
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 07:20 -0700

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