Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language
Date	2016-08-01 10:30 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<nnn1ae$src$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <4b5deb70-4e84-405b-b23b-97f7d8950975@googlegroups.com> <nne3kh$rl3$1@dont-email.me> <da0382e0-bb64-4e97-b148-ea5c33395916@googlegroups.com> <nnf9v7$u4u$1@dont-email.me> <cce1320f-2bd3-479a-b36d-eaf75764d42c@googlegroups.com>

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On 29/07/16 14:32, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 6:08:47 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>> On 29/07/16 03:27, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 7:14:33 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
<snip>
>> I don't mean that a compiler would re-arrange global variables to make
>> them misaligned - I mean it could re-arrange them to make them aligned
>> /and/ save space.
> 
> I don't think compilers would do that when speed is a factor.  The default
> member alignment on Microsoft's compilers is 8 bytes, which I think is
> ridiculous.  But, there it is.  I set all of my projects to use 1-byte
> alignment because I do care about space, and performance is not a great
> concern of mine.  I'm already coding in C/C++.  It's almost always fast
> enough without the extra optimizations.

I was talking specifically about global data (or, more accurately, data
with program lifetime - the scope and access of the data does not matter).

Compilers may use bigger alignment for items on the stack than for
statically allocated data with program lifetime.  Since local data only
exists for a short time, and is mostly in registers, it can make more
sense to make it match the width of the register (typically 4 or even 8
bytes) rather than its true size.  However, this could vary a good deal
from compiler to compiler, and also depend on optimisation levels -
without any optimisation enabled, a compiler may take a simple approach
such as align all stack variables to 8 byte boundaries.  With
optimisation, of course, a good many local variables never appear on the
stack at all.

Setting alignment of data to 1 byte rather than natural alignment for
the target will almost certainly be negligible in terms of data space
(you might save a few hundred bytes total ram in a large program), but
can easily be very significant in performance.

When you have got a fancy sports car, you don't keep it in first gear
and claim it is fast enough because it is a sports car.  Using a "fast"
language like C, then limiting it by avoiding all compiler
optimisations, and then cripple it with intentional pessimations such as
changing the alignment of data.  With enough effort, even C can be made
slower than Java, C#, Python, etc.

> 
>> So if you write this:
>>
>> 	uint16_t a;
>> 	uint8_t b;
>> 	uint32_t c;
>> 	uint8_t d;
>> 	uint64_t e;
>>
>> Then rather than generating this with 4 bytes wasted space:
>>
>> 	(assume 8-byte alignement)
>> 	a: 2 bytes
>> 	b: 1 byte
>> 	padding 1 byte
>> 	c: 4 bytes
>> 	d: 1 byte
>> 	padding 3 bytes
>> 	e: 8 bytes
>>
>> the compiler might generate:
>>
>> 	(assume 8-byte alignement)
>> 	e: 8 bytes
>> 	c: 4 bytes
>> 	a: 2 bytes
>> 	b: 1 byte
>> 	d: 1 byte
> 
> I think compilers would do this if you said to pack your data.  Otherwise
> it would rearrange them so the are aligned on common boundaries which,
> on 32-bit machines, will be at least 4-byte aligned.

That was rearranged to align them on suitable boundaries.  On most
targets, the best alignment for objects up to the natural width of the
processor is the size of the object.  So for a 64-bit cpu for example,
you want to align 32-bit "int" on 4 byte boundaries, but there is no
benefit in aligning 16-bit "short" more carefully than 2 byte boundaries.

> 
> I see that in all local variables in the compilers I use (x86-based
> machines mostly).  I rarely see references to local variables that are
> not directly aligned.  The only times I can directly recall are in packed
> structures.

Again, I was not talking about local variables.

But certainly with locals, the compiler is not going to make the
alignment worse than "natural".

> 
> But, I do realize the compiler can do that.  I just don't typically see
> it done, so it's something I would assume and then, when something didn't
> work, go and examine why.  I also look forward to CAlive, and it will
> align them in that way, except where an override is given to pack local
> data.
> 
>> Local variables are either on the stack, in registers, or disappear due
>> to optimisations.  A good compiler will often do a lot of reordering of
>> local variables on a stack - but I certainly agree that they will be
>> aligned optimally for the platform.
> 
> There are sometimes additional constraints in source code which could
> override best optimization and/or alignment practices, such as requiring
> that the data be packed.  But, within those constraints, they will be
> aligned optimally for the platform.
> 
<snip>

> Microsoft's compilers are not the best in optimization, but they are
> adequate.  I sometimes think optimization is too overrated.  How fast
> does an algorithm which asks the user to type in the patient's data
> and click the save button really need to be? :-)

Although I don't use MS's tools at all, my understanding is that their
optimisations are pretty good.

Certainly optimisation is often overrated - "Premature optimisation is
the root of all evil".  But the operative word here is "premature".
Optimising /appropriately/ is often important.

> 
>>>> Supercat certainly makes some good points about code that looks like it 
>>>> is valid, but has surprising undefined behaviour.  But he makes 
>>>> inaccurate, or downright incorrect, points about how he thinks the 
>>>> standards used to be, his belief that all compilers used to behave in a 
>>>> certain fashion, and his belief that modern compiler developers are 
>>>> maliciously unhelpful regarding undefined behaviour.
>>>
>>> I would suggest he probably has old compilers he tests things in to
>>> determine their functionality.  I still have Microsoft's C 6.1 compiler
>>> from the early 1990s.  I use it still on some code because I wrote it
>>> for that compiler back then.
>>
>> Ah, it is certainly true that for many old compilers, there was no
>> type-based aliasing analysis and you could cast between uint16_t* and
>> uint32_t* pointers at will and get the "expected" code.  So no testing
>> is needed.
>>
>> But it was /never/ true that this was guaranteed by the standards, I
>> have never seen it in documented (though I haven't read /all/ compiler
>> manuals!), and even long ago there were some compilers that had rather
>> sophisticated optimisations that may have taken advantage of type-based
>> alias analysis.
> 
> I think that most C compilers from that 80s and 90s era did not rely upon
> the standards entirely.  In fact, I think they often considered the
> standard to be too restrictive, or confining, and thereby ignored some
> features of it for the sake of benefiting the target platform.

That is possible - I don't have the experience to confirm or deny it.  I
hadn't did not really think about standards during the 90's (although I
have had occasion to use a 90's era compiler during the past couple of
years).

> 
> Of course, my experience is limited almost entirely to x86 with some ARM
> code.  So, my "worldview" is narrow in this regard.
> 
>> So I won't disagree with claims of "my old compiler did this...".  I
>> merely disagree with extending that to "/all/ old compilers did this..."
>> or "the old C standards said this...".
> 
> I don't know about the standard.  I continue to learn more and more about
> it here and there and grow both more and more impressed, and also more and
> more put off by it (or parts of it I should say).
> 
> I may get to the end of my CAlive journey and realize I could've saved
> myself years of trouble by just learning it from the beginning. :-)
> Nonetheless, it is my offering unto the Lord, and unto all of man.  It's
> a large part of why it has the name "alive" in it (because He lives)...
> 
>>>> But if we all agreed, what point would there be in a discussion group?  :-)
>>> Agreed.  [pause ... realization]  D'oh!
> 
> Best regards,
> Rick C. Hodgin
>

Thread

IEEE: C is the first programming language jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-27 22:36 +0200
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-27 16:42 -0700
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-28 01:47 +0200
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-27 17:20 -0700
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-27 18:03 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 00:43 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 05:12 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 05:41 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 06:02 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 06:26 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 06:45 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 09:11 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 09:30 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-28 14:03 +0200
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 05:24 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 01:14 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 18:27 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 12:08 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-29 11:37 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 12:51 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-29 08:36 -0600
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 05:32 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 14:42 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 06:59 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 16:08 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-29 09:16 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 09:21 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 17:55 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 11:00 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 11:48 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 21:12 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 19:39 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 14:56 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 08:54 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-01 10:30 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 08:13 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 12:18 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 07:34 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 14:10 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-29 23:36 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 16:04 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-30 11:22 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-30 01:09 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 08:08 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 21:16 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 22:13 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-02 13:33 +0100
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 08:11 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 07:36 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 07:51 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 08:19 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 10:18 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 11:16 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 11:49 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 12:37 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 13:15 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 14:05 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 15:53 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 18:03 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 10:50 -0700
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-07-28 10:50 +0200
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-28 08:11 -0500
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 07:46 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-28 16:50 +0200
            Re: Setting architectural features in stone Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-01 11:18 +0200
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 05:37 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 14:02 +0100
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 07:05 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 16:04 +0100
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ivan Godard <ivan@millcomputing.com> - 2016-08-01 09:26 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 10:12 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-01 10:21 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 11:01 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-01 11:44 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-02 12:05 +0200
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-01 15:48 +0000
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-08-02 20:09 -0400
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-03 06:42 +0000
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-03 11:02 +0100
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ivan Godard <ivan@millcomputing.com> - 2016-08-03 03:15 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-03 11:53 +0000
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-03 08:57 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-03 10:52 +0200
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-03 11:09 +0100
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-03 08:51 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 10:51 +0100
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-01 13:13 +0200
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 05:27 -0700
          Setting architectural features in stone Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-08-01 10:00 -0700
            Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-02 10:29 +0000
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-01 16:29 -0400
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 15:53 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-04 16:37 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-04 16:07 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-04 20:38 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-04 23:52 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:00 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-06 03:12 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-06 21:48 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-06 20:07 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 10:03 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-05 13:09 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:38 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 11:24 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 15:28 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 08:25 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 16:36 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 08:41 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 16:45 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 09:41 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 19:45 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 09:47 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 16:11 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-06 21:50 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-06 19:12 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-06 22:38 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 14:06 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 10:04 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 17:27 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 20:24 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 21:30 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 17:03 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 21:36 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-08 15:11 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 09:02 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-09 07:35 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-08-08 16:00 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-09 08:07 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-08 21:22 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 11:08 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-08-08 13:39 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 11:54 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-09 08:50 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 15:19 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-09 09:14 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 19:22 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-08-09 11:12 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2016-08-09 15:25 +0000
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 19:50 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 16:44 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-09 17:38 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-09 08:51 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 20:06 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 11:57 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-09 08:51 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 12:15 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-08 11:57 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-08 23:04 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 15:20 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 09:27 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 09:21 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 17:33 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 14:35 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-05 14:06 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 14:37 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 13:53 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 14:09 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 10:08 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 17:34 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 21:37 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-07 19:18 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 12:31 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-08 03:55 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-08 08:28 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-08 09:44 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-08 10:13 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 07:51 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:39 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 11:27 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 15:29 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 08:38 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:40 -0400
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-28 21:27 +0200
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 00:19 +0200
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-01 11:49 +0200
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-28 10:01 +0000
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-07-28 01:57 -0500
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 07:27 -0700
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-28 09:06 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 09:39 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-28 11:56 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-28 15:19 -0400
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 12:15 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 05:25 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-01 07:37 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 08:21 -0700
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-27 17:17 -0700
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-28 14:17 +0200
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-28 18:43 +0200
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-28 18:58 +0200
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-31 21:46 +0200
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-01 16:37 +1200
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 07:20 -0700

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