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Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored

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On 3/28/2016 2:38 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
> On 3/28/2016 8:53 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>> McGinn has a small problem with data. Diffusion data for example. Let's
>> suppose we take McGinn's stance that, besides molecules, a gas might
>> contain clusters of molecules called microdroplets, where we have
>> defined "gas" to be any substance that obeys Boyle's/Mariotte's Law and
>> Charles'/Guy-Lussac's Law, is not a bulk liquid or bulk solid, and
>> consists of some kind of particles. Indeed, when those laws were
>> established, the notion of molecules or atoms were not central or
>> assumed. In fact, even in kinetic theory, the basic assumptions are
>> wholly consistent with this notion of gas, as long as the microdroplets
>> don't condense or aggregate; all that's needed is some sort of particle
>> with long travel times between interactions and elastic collisions,
>> which microdroplets are presumed to satisfy. (If they don't, then the
>> microdroplet notion fails on not matching these gas laws.)
>>
>> Directly from kinetic theory, the rms speed of the particles is given by
>> v=sqrt(3PV/Nm)
>> or, taking a standard pressure and volume,
>> v ~ 1/sqrt(m).
>> This is pretty straightforward to use, and one can obtain that at STP, v
>> for oxygen molecules should be 460 m/s, and because hydrogen molecules
>> are 16 times lighter, v for hydrogen molecules will be 1840 m/s.
>>
>> This rms speed affects everything from the speed of sound (which is why
>> the pitch in an organ pipe filled with helium is higher than the pitch
>> in an organ pipe filled with air) to diffusion. The diffusion
>> coefficient is directly proportional to the thermal speed.
>>
>> Thus, one can test McGinn's hypothesis of water microdroplets as
>> particles in gas, simply by measuring the relative diffusion in a
>> heterogeneous gas. For example, the molecular weight of water is 18
>> g/mol and the molecular weight of neon is 20 g/mol. A neon-water-vapor
>> mix will then diffuse with both components at approximately the same
>> diffusion rate. But if we suppose that the water is actually in
>> microdroplet particles of, say, 16 molecules or so, then the diffusion
>> rate for water would be 4 times smaller than that of neon. You could do
>> the same diffusion test for argon-water-vapor or xenon-water-vapor mixes
>> to determine the average weight of the water vapor particles. You could
>> do the same with water vapor and toluene (mol. wt = 92 g/mol) or any
>> other similar gaseous solvent of choice.
>>
>> McGinn might be deeply grieved to learn that relative diffusion
>> measurements have already been done, but would recommend that he collect
>> the data himself so that there is no doubt in his mind.
>>
>> --
>> Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>
> Solving Tornadoes responded with:
> "Phoney science always hides behind phoney complexity."
>
> There is nothing complex about this. It is FRESHMAN science.

And since you will likely ask for references:
Halliday and Resnick, Fundamentals of Physics, section 23-4
Giancoli, Physics for Scientists and Engineers, section 18-7
Asimov, The History of Physics, section 14-2

Now, I would love to have you tell me these books are imaginary and 
don't exist.

>
> If you do not know, or did not know, that measurable quantities like
> diffusion rates and the fundamental frequencies of organ pipes are
> strongly related to rms thermal speeds of the particles....
>
> If you do not know, or did not know, that the rms thermal speeds of
> particles is inversely related to the square root of the mass of those
> particles....
>
> If you do not know, or did not know, that you can therefore easily and
> unambiguously MEASURE the mass of particles -- especially in comparison
> with other particles like xenon or toluene gas -- by these means...
>
> If you do not know, or did not know, that this evidence CLEARLY shows
> particles of water at STP are monomolecular....
>
> Then you learned NOTHING from your introductory science courses at
> whatever institution where you claim to have taken them. I do not blame
> the institution. I blame your inability to pay attention.
>
> Now, since you CAN do the experiments to measure diffusion of various
> gas mixtures yourself, and since you can measure the fundamental
> frequencies of organ pipes filled with various gas mixtures yourself, it
> should be relatively straightforward to remind yourself of the basic
> science here and what the relationship is between relative diffusion
> rates and relative particle mass and what the relationship is between
> relative fundamental frequency and relative particle mass, you should
> probably commit to do the damned measurements yourself, so that you only
> have yourself to point to when the results come out surprising. Or you
> can find the existing data, but if you don't want to do that, then you
> certainly should perform the easy experiments yourself.
>


-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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Thread

H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-03-25 17:04 -0700
  Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 01:38 -0700
    Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 08:14 -0700
      Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 23:10 -0700
        Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 23:37 -0700
  Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 15:58 +0100
    Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 08:53 -0500
      Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 11:40 -0700
      Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 14:38 -0500
        Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 12:49 -0700
        Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 15:04 -0500
          Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 13:38 -0700
          Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 15:54 -0500
            Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 16:06 -0500
              Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 14:24 -0700
            Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 14:19 -0700

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