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Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored

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On 3/28/2016 8:53 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
> McGinn has a small problem with data. Diffusion data for example. Let's
> suppose we take McGinn's stance that, besides molecules, a gas might
> contain clusters of molecules called microdroplets, where we have
> defined "gas" to be any substance that obeys Boyle's/Mariotte's Law and
> Charles'/Guy-Lussac's Law, is not a bulk liquid or bulk solid, and
> consists of some kind of particles. Indeed, when those laws were
> established, the notion of molecules or atoms were not central or
> assumed. In fact, even in kinetic theory, the basic assumptions are
> wholly consistent with this notion of gas, as long as the microdroplets
> don't condense or aggregate; all that's needed is some sort of particle
> with long travel times between interactions and elastic collisions,
> which microdroplets are presumed to satisfy. (If they don't, then the
> microdroplet notion fails on not matching these gas laws.)
>
> Directly from kinetic theory, the rms speed of the particles is given by
> v=sqrt(3PV/Nm)
> or, taking a standard pressure and volume,
> v ~ 1/sqrt(m).
> This is pretty straightforward to use, and one can obtain that at STP, v
> for oxygen molecules should be 460 m/s, and because hydrogen molecules
> are 16 times lighter, v for hydrogen molecules will be 1840 m/s.
>
> This rms speed affects everything from the speed of sound (which is why
> the pitch in an organ pipe filled with helium is higher than the pitch
> in an organ pipe filled with air) to diffusion. The diffusion
> coefficient is directly proportional to the thermal speed.
>
> Thus, one can test McGinn's hypothesis of water microdroplets as
> particles in gas, simply by measuring the relative diffusion in a
> heterogeneous gas. For example, the molecular weight of water is 18
> g/mol and the molecular weight of neon is 20 g/mol. A neon-water-vapor
> mix will then diffuse with both components at approximately the same
> diffusion rate. But if we suppose that the water is actually in
> microdroplet particles of, say, 16 molecules or so, then the diffusion
> rate for water would be 4 times smaller than that of neon. You could do
> the same diffusion test for argon-water-vapor or xenon-water-vapor mixes
> to determine the average weight of the water vapor particles. You could
> do the same with water vapor and toluene (mol. wt = 92 g/mol) or any
> other similar gaseous solvent of choice.
>
> McGinn might be deeply grieved to learn that relative diffusion
> measurements have already been done, but would recommend that he collect
> the data himself so that there is no doubt in his mind.
>
> --
> Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Solving Tornadoes responded with:
"Phoney science always hides behind phoney complexity."

There is nothing complex about this. It is FRESHMAN science.

If you do not know, or did not know, that measurable quantities like 
diffusion rates and the fundamental frequencies of organ pipes are 
strongly related to rms thermal speeds of the particles....

If you do not know, or did not know, that the rms thermal speeds of 
particles is inversely related to the square root of the mass of those 
particles....

If you do not know, or did not know, that you can therefore easily and 
unambiguously MEASURE the mass of particles -- especially in comparison 
with other particles like xenon or toluene gas -- by these means...

If you do not know, or did not know, that this evidence CLEARLY shows 
particles of water at STP are monomolecular....

Then you learned NOTHING from your introductory science courses at 
whatever institution where you claim to have taken them. I do not blame 
the institution. I blame your inability to pay attention.

Now, since you CAN do the experiments to measure diffusion of various 
gas mixtures yourself, and since you can measure the fundamental 
frequencies of organ pipes filled with various gas mixtures yourself, it 
should be relatively straightforward to remind yourself of the basic 
science here and what the relationship is between relative diffusion 
rates and relative particle mass and what the relationship is between 
relative fundamental frequency and relative particle mass, you should 
probably commit to do the damned measurements yourself, so that you only 
have yourself to point to when the results come out surprising. Or you 
can find the existing data, but if you don't want to do that, then you 
certainly should perform the easy experiments yourself.

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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Thread

H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-03-25 17:04 -0700
  Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 01:38 -0700
    Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 08:14 -0700
      Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 23:10 -0700
        Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 23:37 -0700
  Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 15:58 +0100
    Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 08:53 -0500
      Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 11:40 -0700
      Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 14:38 -0500
        Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 12:49 -0700
        Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 15:04 -0500
          Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 13:38 -0700
          Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 15:54 -0500
            Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 16:06 -0500
              Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 14:24 -0700
            Re: H bonds get stronger when asymmetry is restored Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 14:19 -0700

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