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Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN

From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN
Date 2016-01-28 16:05 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <n8dahs$kic$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (10 earlier) <n81cqm$1mih$1@gioia.aioe.org> <n83q7b$c15$1@dont-email.me> <n84ub7$ef$1@gioia.aioe.org> <n85tjl$d4m$1@dont-email.me> <n8cnk1$1bo$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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HAA wrote:

> Bernd Paysan wrote:
>> HAA wrote:
>>
>> > Bernd Paysan wrote:
>> >> ...
>> >> Just point me to the lawsuit were somebody won a lawsuit against a
>> >> software manufacturer who had buggy software, i.e. not intentionally
>> >> buggy, but accidentially so, following normal development procedures.
>> >
>> > I don't spend my days looking.  The only way a manufacturer can be
>> > exempt
>> > liability is if there were legislation to that effect.  Can you point
>> > to such legislation for software manufacturers?
>>
>> Since de facto nothing happens against real software manufacturer, the
>> legislation is not interpreted as you depict it.  Your fictive liability
>> in practise is limited to very obvious malfunction.
> 
> You appear to underestimate just how far legal liability can extend.  Take
> any incident resulting in death and everyone's role is examined in detail.
> Any failing by any party, direct to the incident or not, that's found is
> prosecuted by the government and penalties are applied.  It's possible to
> plead 'not guilty' of course but that just drags the process out with
> hefty lawyer bills to pay.
> 
> Not fiction.  You can find stories such as this aplenty in newspapers.
> How many more cases involving liability must there be that don't make
> it into the papers.

Surprising liabilities always make it into the news.  That's how news work.  
"Dog bites man" is not in the news.  "Man bites dog" is.

>> nothing happens against real software manufacturer
> 
> I wouldn't count on it.

On the other hand, we have exatly these people in the Forth community.  
People who make surgical instruments.  People who operate pharmacy 
production (bigForth has been used for 20 years in an VME bus controller to 
do that, and this was under a commerical license, not under the GPL; of 
course it ran like a precision clockwork and never failed).  Bomb disposal 
robots (MPE).  Roket scientists and stuff inside commercial planes.  People 
who do code audit for these critical things.

To get this kind of project through the authorities, you must provide 
evidence that you followed the necessary painstakingness to make such a 
product, i.e. test procedures, audit, and so on.  In case someone dies, this 
evidence relieves you of "involuntary manslaughter": you already have proven 
that you care.

This is the duty of the actual developer of the product, it does not reach 
through to the compiler maker.  The developer has to elaborate why he thinks 
the compiler is good enough for the job.  In any case, you can't pass the 
liability through.  If you don't evaluate that your compiler produces good 
binaries, it is your fault in such a life-critical software.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 14:50 -0800
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-05 11:24 +1100
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 16:47 -0800
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-05 12:17 +1100
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-05 10:51 +0000
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-05 15:06 +0000
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 17:25 -0800
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-05 13:06 +1100
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 21:42 -0800
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-01-05 01:48 -0500
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-05 11:15 +0000
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-06 14:35 +1100
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-05 02:04 +0000
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 18:37 -0800
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-04 19:17 -0800
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-05 11:10 +0000
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-06 15:02 +1100
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-01-05 08:03 -0800
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-01-05 08:07 -0800
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-01-05 08:18 -0800
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-01-05 08:21 -0800
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-07 05:13 -0500
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-08 12:36 +1100
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-08 10:32 +0000
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 02:55 -0800
          Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-01-08 13:57 +0100
            Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 06:55 -0800
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-08 15:06 -0800
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 16:59 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-08 16:15 -1000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 22:23 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-08 21:12 -1000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-09 08:04 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-09 09:16 -1000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-10 15:31 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-10 08:11 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-10 09:42 -1000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-11 13:02 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-13 16:20 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-10 14:10 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-11 18:38 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-14 08:47 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 17:24 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-13 19:25 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-14 22:09 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-14 16:21 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-16 11:34 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-16 03:43 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-19 18:01 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-19 23:07 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-21 14:29 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-21 22:25 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-24 13:28 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-25 01:31 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-25 21:45 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-25 10:24 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-25 20:41 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-28 20:39 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-28 16:05 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 20:52 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-24 13:16 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 08:46 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-16 11:34 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 20:53 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-13 19:31 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-11 09:29 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-10 21:18 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-10 21:29 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-10 20:37 -1000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-01-11 09:05 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-12 12:26 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-10 14:18 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 23:31 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-09 08:09 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-09 05:31 -0600
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-09 07:52 -0600
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-01-09 18:22 +0200
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-09 16:29 +0000
          Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-08 11:23 +0000
            Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-10 20:17 -0800
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-11 11:56 +0000
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-01-11 11:59 +0000
                generalized CASE (was: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-11 12:30 +0000
                Re: generalized CASE (was: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-11 13:52 -0800
                Re: generalized CASE Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-01-11 22:00 +0000
                Re: generalized CASE Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-01-12 01:50 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-11 14:16 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-11 16:17 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-12 13:07 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-01-12 20:48 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-12 14:16 -0800
          Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-08 16:21 +0000
            Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-08 20:12 +0000
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-09 18:19 +0000
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-11 09:34 +1100
            Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-08 21:13 +0100
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-09 23:46 +1100
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-08 10:11 -0500
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-11 08:38 +1100
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-01-08 03:04 -0800

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