Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN
Date	2016-01-21 22:25 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<n7ri67$igq$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <n7c36d$1gkg$2@gioia.aioe.org> <n7cak3$4uo$1@dont-email.me> <n7kn01$uhi$1@gioia.aioe.org> <n7mbu0$o0m$1@dont-email.me> <n7pj9q$itp$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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HAA wrote:

> The point is that manufacturers are legally liable for what their produce.
> If their product results in serious damage and/or loss of life there will
> be consequences.  If I were writing Forth commercially, I (or the comany I
> worked for) would be legally liable.  It's a strong incentive to buy tools
> from an established vendor who is also legally liable.

So something which never happens, because the real world, which you 
explained pretty well, means you have to prove that they did something 
intentionally wrong, is a strong incentive?

The problem is that the pointy haired boss asks only one question: "can we 
sue somebody?" and the answer is "yes".  But the next question should be: 
"would we succeed?" and the answer is "no, but maybe they will sue somebody 
else to cover their ass, and not succeed either".  I know this sort of 
cover-my-ass "incentive", it happens especially at places where everybody is 
running around with pants down.  Projects in this kind of environment are 
likely to fail, and then people look for a culprit, instead of looking for a 
cure.

Software quality problems like the VW defeat device may be cured by legal 
procedures.  Here it is obvious that the vendor did something on purpose to 
make it not fit for the particular purpose (keep the exhaust air clean).  
That's the sort of level you can expect from the legal system.

A lot of commercial end product makers use free software as building blocks.  
Especially Linux is found in a lot of higher-end embedded systems.  You 
definitely can't sue Linus Torvalds or the Debian community on which you 
have based your system.  Apparently, this works out.

Occasionally, there are people trying to sue big companies, but usually, the 
only thing you hear is that they started the lawsuit, like this one of 
today:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/21/samsung_sued_for_lackadaisical_android_updates/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=gplus

I wish them good luck, but dout they will get anywhere.  Software quality is 
not a legal issue, it is a technical issue.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

Thread

BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 14:50 -0800
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-05 11:24 +1100
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 16:47 -0800
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-05 12:17 +1100
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-05 10:51 +0000
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-05 15:06 +0000
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 17:25 -0800
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-05 13:06 +1100
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 21:42 -0800
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-01-05 01:48 -0500
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-05 11:15 +0000
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-06 14:35 +1100
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-05 02:04 +0000
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 18:37 -0800
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-04 19:17 -0800
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-05 11:10 +0000
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-06 15:02 +1100
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-01-05 08:03 -0800
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-01-05 08:07 -0800
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-01-05 08:18 -0800
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-01-05 08:21 -0800
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-07 05:13 -0500
    Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-08 12:36 +1100
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-08 10:32 +0000
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 02:55 -0800
          Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-01-08 13:57 +0100
            Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 06:55 -0800
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-08 15:06 -0800
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 16:59 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-08 16:15 -1000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 22:23 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-08 21:12 -1000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-09 08:04 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-09 09:16 -1000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-10 15:31 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-10 08:11 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-10 09:42 -1000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-11 13:02 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-13 16:20 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-10 14:10 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-11 18:38 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-14 08:47 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 17:24 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-13 19:25 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-14 22:09 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-14 16:21 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-16 11:34 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-16 03:43 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-19 18:01 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-19 23:07 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-21 14:29 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-21 22:25 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-24 13:28 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-25 01:31 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-25 21:45 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-25 10:24 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-25 20:41 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-28 20:39 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-28 16:05 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 20:52 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-24 13:16 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 08:46 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-16 11:34 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 20:53 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-13 19:31 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-11 09:29 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-10 21:18 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-10 21:29 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-10 20:37 -1000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-01-11 09:05 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-12 12:26 +1100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-10 14:18 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 23:31 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-09 08:09 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-09 05:31 -0600
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-09 07:52 -0600
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-01-09 18:22 +0200
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-09 16:29 +0000
          Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-08 11:23 +0000
            Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-10 20:17 -0800
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-11 11:56 +0000
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-01-11 11:59 +0000
                generalized CASE (was: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-11 12:30 +0000
                Re: generalized CASE (was: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-11 13:52 -0800
                Re: generalized CASE Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-01-11 22:00 +0000
                Re: generalized CASE Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-01-12 01:50 +0100
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-11 14:16 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-11 16:17 -0800
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-12 13:07 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-01-12 20:48 +0000
                Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-12 14:16 -0800
          Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-08 16:21 +0000
            Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-08 20:12 +0000
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-09 18:19 +0000
              Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-11 09:34 +1100
            Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-08 21:13 +0100
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-09 23:46 +1100
      Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-08 10:11 -0500
        Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-01-11 08:38 +1100
  Re: BEGIN WHILE UNTIL THEN november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-01-08 03:04 -0800

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