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Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought

From moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Newsgroups sci.physics
Subject Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought
Date 2016-01-15 17:23 +0000
Organization The World : www.TheWorld.com : Since 1989
Message-ID <n7b9vd$1fg$1@pcls7.std.com> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <51637bfc-5925-443e-aed4-3d2b6ed34988@googlegroups.com> <n790f8$9es$1@pcls7.std.com> <c5368fa4-7960-42da-b978-f3eb344d80d6@googlegroups.com> <n794v2$nsi$1@pcls7.std.com> <9c8a7ff9-2b33-498a-ae06-1d76d3efad83@googlegroups.com>

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Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> writes:

>On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 1:46:22 PM UTC-8, Michael Moroney wrote:

>MM:
>Drag is a force backwards.  Lift is a force upwards.

>JM:
>Yes.  I know.  Hmm.  Now that I think about it, drag is not the significant
>factor that reduces lift in moist air.  But what you are suggesting is 
>wrong.  Moist air is heavier, not lighter, than dry air.

The gas laws, and actual measurements state otherwise.  I will go with
science rather than your anecdotes.

>   And claiming 
>that reduced drag associated with moist air is evidence that 
>substantiates the notion that moist air is lighter is an invalid 
>argument. 

Nobody made that argument.  Less density means less mass of air is 
affected by the wings making them less effective in humid air.

> Because it fails to account for other factors that may 
actually be causing the reduction in lift.

>What might these other factors be?

The reduced density of humid air.

>Before I answer take into account the following facts:

>The moisture in moist air is not steam, it is little micro 
>droplets/clusters of LIQUID H2O.
>Liquid H2O has a very high heat capacity, which is just a fancy way of 
>saying that it absorbs energy.  In fact water's ability to absorb energy 
>is greater than that of any other liquid.

The action of wings has nothing to do with the energy content of water.
It has everything to do with redirecting the mass of air causing a force
(lift) on wings upward.  Sailboats tacking upwind do the same.

<snip crap>

>The best way to know the weight/volume of moist air is to measure it. 
>Nobody ever has.

Actually I've seen it done in in a physics lab when I was in college. Very
delicate instruments can weigh the mass of a volume of gas, and I saw it 
done with dry air and humid air.  The humid air was lighter.

>JM:
>Anecdote plus anecdote equals more anecdote. =20

>MM:
>Is that the best argument that you have?

>JM:
>It's the only argument I need.

So you don't have any arguments of any substance.

>MM:
>"Everything is anecdote, 100+years if aerospace science and engineering be =
>damned!" (not to mention who knows how many years of weather science)

>JM:
>If you measure you know.

As I stated, I've seen it done.

>Using anecdote won't always lead one to a wrong conclusion.  But it is 
>never a scientifically valid argument. Hundreds of years of anecdote is 
>not more valid than 2 hours of controlled experiment.

Which is why I value science over your anecdotes.

>MM:
>We have made jets fly much faster than sound, rockets that reached the 
>planets and you really think nobody but you has figured out the density 
>of humid air?

>JM:
>I know they haven't.  Meteorologists refuse to measure it.

Once again I've seen it measured.

>  (That is why you couldn't find it on the internet.)

You know, there's a really cool website out there.  It's called
google.com. I used it just now and in a second, I found all kinds of info
on the density of humid air.  Yoou should try it sometime.

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Thread

Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 21:58 -0800
  Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 21:16 -0800
    Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-14 17:08 +0000
      Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 18:27 +0100
        Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 10:23 -0800
      Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 10:23 -0800
        Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-14 10:35 -0800
          Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 13:43 -0500
          Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 12:03 -0800
            Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-14 12:09 -0800
              Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 12:13 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-14 21:19 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 22:03 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-14 22:38 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 23:05 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 10:25 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-15 12:27 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 10:58 -0600
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-01-15 07:06 +0000
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 10:22 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-01-15 20:33 +0000
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 13:22 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 16:07 -0600
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-01-16 00:14 +0000
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-15 18:52 -0600
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 15:12 -0600
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-17 15:34 -0600
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 19:23 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-21 21:53 -0600
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-23 09:01 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 00:30 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-15 12:34 -0800
        Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-14 18:53 +0000
          Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-01-14 19:13 +0000
          Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 12:10 -0800
            Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-14 20:29 +0000
              Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 12:42 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-14 21:46 +0000
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 18:15 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-15 17:23 +0000
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 10:14 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-15 19:07 +0000
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 12:07 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-17 10:31 -0600
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 12:19 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-15 16:31 -0600
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 10:17 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 14:11 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-15 18:00 -0600
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-16 00:06 +0000
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 16:57 -0800
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-16 06:10 +0000
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-16 23:34 -0600
                Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 15:21 -0600
  Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 11:36 -0800
    Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-29 10:16 -0800
  Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-31 22:31 -0800

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