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Groups > sci.physics > #545650
| From | moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics |
| Subject | Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought |
| Date | 2016-01-15 19:07 +0000 |
| Organization | The World : www.TheWorld.com : Since 1989 |
| Message-ID | <n7bg1m$krl$1@pcls7.std.com> (permalink) |
| References | (7 earlier) <c5368fa4-7960-42da-b978-f3eb344d80d6@googlegroups.com> <n794v2$nsi$1@pcls7.std.com> <9c8a7ff9-2b33-498a-ae06-1d76d3efad83@googlegroups.com> <n7b9vd$1fg$1@pcls7.std.com> <d2484a99-0a2c-4dc4-85c8-d86e2302c82d@googlegroups.com> |
James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> writes: >On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Michael Moroney wrote: >> > And claiming >> >that reduced drag associated with moist air is evidence that >> >substantiates the notion that moist air is lighter is an invalid >> >argument. >> >> Nobody made that argument. >I mispoke. I meant less lift not less drag. (You did make that >argument, right?) Well, the reverse, actually. I said the reduced density of moist air is why lift is reduced. >> Less density means less mass of air is >> affected by the wings making them less effective in humid air. >Right this is your (unproven) premise. I say the weight of this moist >air is higher but the lift is lower due to the increase in energy >absorbtion associated with the increased moisture. Your unproven anecdotes conflict with actual science. >> > Because it fails to account for other factors that may >> actually be causing the reduction in lift. >> >> >What might these other factors be? >> >> The reduced density of humid air. >This is your (unproven) premise. There are many universities with aeronautical engineering and meteorology curriculum that prove it many times over to their students. >> >Before I answer take into account the following facts: >> >> >The moisture in moist air is not steam, it is little micro >> >droplets/clusters of LIQUID H2O. >> >Liquid H2O has a very high heat capacity, which is just a fancy way of >> >saying that it absorbs energy. In fact water's ability to absorb energy >> >is greater than that of any other liquid. >> >> The action of wings has nothing to do with the energy content of water. >It does. More water equates to more energy absorptions. Provide the physics behind this claim, how a moving wing provides energy to your mythical water droplets. >> It has everything to do with redirecting the mass of air causing a force >> (lift) on wings upward. Sailboats tacking upwind do the same. >I understand aerodynamic better than you. The energy that pushes a wing comes from air pressure. Hardly. Not if you don't even know the density of humid air or how wings work. >> Actually I've seen it done in in a physics lab when I was in college. Very >> delicate instruments can weigh the mass of a volume of gas, and I saw it >> done with dry air and humid air. The humid air was lighter. >I am sure you are lieing. Where is the data? Did you dog eat it? I knew you would never believe that. Sorry, but that was a couple decades ago so I no longer have notes. The demonstration had several parts, a sealed container was measured when containing alternately vacuum, dry air, humid air, helium, CO2 and a heavy gas (don't remember what, may have been argon or a freon (hey, this was when releasing freons in the air was OK!) or something. All (except the vacuum) was at STP. They may have done pressurized measurements as well, I don't remember. And without delicate instruments: A full scuba tank is noticeably heavier than an empty one. Full is about 3,000 PSI so its air is 200 times denser than atmospheric. So a "sensitive" scale really needs to be only about 200 times more sensitive than a bathroom scale to give meaningful results. It's easy to measure air density. To anyone else interested: One of the gas laws for an ideal gas is that for a particular pressure, temperature and volume, the number of molecules of gas is constant. (PV = nRT) Air is mostly nitrogen and oxygen, and its average molecular weight is 29. (N2 is 28, O2 is 32). If air contains water vapor, some of the air molecules will be displaced by water H2O molecules. H2O has a molecular weight of 18. This is why the density of humid air is reduced. If such things as (H2O)n dropplets existed but were small enough to act as a gas, humid air would be more dense and wings would work better in humid air. Even (H2O)2 (MW=36) would make air denser. That is your science lesson for the day.
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Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 21:58 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 21:16 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-14 17:08 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 18:27 +0100
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 10:23 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 10:23 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-14 10:35 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 13:43 -0500
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 12:03 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-14 12:09 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 12:13 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-14 21:19 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 22:03 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-14 22:38 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 23:05 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 10:25 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-15 12:27 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 10:58 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-01-15 07:06 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 10:22 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-01-15 20:33 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 13:22 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 16:07 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-01-16 00:14 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-15 18:52 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 15:12 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-17 15:34 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 19:23 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-21 21:53 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-23 09:01 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 00:30 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-01-15 12:34 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-14 18:53 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-01-14 19:13 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 12:10 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-14 20:29 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 12:42 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-14 21:46 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 18:15 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-15 17:23 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 10:14 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-15 19:07 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 12:07 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-17 10:31 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 12:19 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-15 16:31 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 10:17 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 14:11 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-15 18:00 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-16 00:06 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 16:57 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-01-16 06:10 +0000
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-01-16 23:34 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 15:21 -0600
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 11:36 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought Solving Tornadoes <solvingtornadoes@gmail.com> - 2016-01-29 10:16 -0800
Re: Why Wind Turbines (May) Cause Drought James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-01-31 22:31 -0800
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