Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it

From	glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it
Date	2015-10-28 21:50 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<n0rfv7$c9e$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <562BAA43.8090700@verizon.net> <ln1tckum2z.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <d84e0f4b-aeab-411c-bf96-49c96113647e@googlegroups.com> <ln7fmbu9qd.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <kfna8r2dfjb.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>

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Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:

(snip)

>> No, if I write `if (ptr != NULL)`, I'm testing whether ptr is unequal to
>> the null pointer.  If it's equal to NULL, it's because that's the most
>> recent value I stored in it.  I might also be *interested* in knowing
>> whether it's valid, but I have no way of testing that, so I don't
>> bother.

I suspect the OP is using valid in a different way than you are.

In CS theory, for example in a linked list or tree, each node
either points to a valid next node or it doesn't. 

Yes it would sometimes be nice to have a test for an invalid,
non-NULL pointer, but C doesn't supply that test.

Then there is the case where a pointer is valid, but isn't supposed
to be. I am sure I am not the only one to accidentally have a circular
lined list when it wasn't supposed to be circular. 

>> [snip partially replicated portion (appears below)]

(snip)

>> If I were designing a language from scratch, rather than having some
>> special operator to test whether a pointer is null, I'd just define
>> equality for pointers and a constant whose value is a null pointer --
>> and not permit pointer values to be used directly as conditions.  I've
>> used several languages that work that way.  If you happen to prefer the
>> way C does it, that's fine;  I'm merely expressing my preference.

> [here starts the second message]
> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:

(snip, someone previously wrote)

>>>> I disagree;  there's nothing coincidental about it.  `if (ptr)` and
>>>> `if (ptr != NULL)` are semantically identical.  The latter expresses
>>>> my intent more clearly.

(and Keith wrote)

>> I also consider both to be idiomatic.  I simply prefer the more explicit
>> form, for reasons I've explained.

> It was reading this very last phrase that prompted me to go back
> and look at the earlier comments more closely.  On doing that I
> didn't come away with very much.  What you're saying strikes me
> as mostly just circular - you prefer the explicit form because it
> makes the pointerness more explicit.  As an explanation that
> isn't very satisfying.  Can you say it another way?  What I think
> you mean is that putting in the "!= NULL" part conveys more
> information, with the unstated assumption that the extra information
> is (in these cases) always valuable.  Does this comment capture,
> or at least largely capture, what you're trying to express?  If
> it doesn't, can you say more about what that is?

I think I agree with Tim, and not Keith on this one. 

It might be that I read:

   if(p) ...

as if p points to something then ..., and as I noted above this is
more in the CS sense than the C sense, I am not confused by it.

I might even suggest that I like this more than the test on integer
values. 

For comparison purposes, note that Java requires the explicit test.

As I understand it, the reason for Java requiring the test wasn't
to avoid this problem, but instead to avoid:

    if(x=y) ...

which, when x and y aren't boolean, isn't valid Java. 

So, they throw out if(p) to keep people from doing if(q=p) accidentally.

> Assuming that my rephrasing above is more or less on the money,
> I would like to offer another viewpoint.  In most cases I would
> not include an explicit comparison for pointers (either to NULL
> or to 0) because it doesn't tell me anything I don't already
> know.  For example, compare

>   if(p && *p != 0) ...

>   if(p != NULL && *p != 0) ...

and note that you did not consider the case:

    if(p && *p) ...

(where *p may or may not be a pointer).

> I don't need the "!= NULL", because it's obvious that the
> variable p is a pointer.  Furthermore I would argue that
> routinely using "!= NULL" (or "== NULL") everywhere is actually
> harmful, because using it everywhere will lessen the impact in
> those places where it really is important to emphasize the
> pointerness.  If we use "!= NULL" to convey the information that
> the thing being compared is a pointer -- which usually isn't very
> much information -- we give up the possibility of using "!= NULL"
> to convey other information that the writer might want to
> express, and which can be a lot more significant.

I agree with this one, though I find it isn't hard to get used
to the !=null in Java.

But I think I would give up the integer case before giving 
up the pointer case. For one, there are, in programs using pointers,
more tests of pointers to NULL than integers to 0. (Not counting 
the values of comparison operators.)

> I agree that doing an explicit comparision (eg, "!= NULL") can
> sometimes be an aid to helping code be easier to read and
> understand.  But I think it is wrong to conclude that therefore
> there should be a rule for doing so always.

I am now wondering about the possibility (which Java didn't take)

of allowing if(p) while disallowing if(q=p), but allowing if((q=p)!=NULL) 

That does complicate the defintion of expression in strange ways,
but might satisfy the "when it really is important to emphasize
the pointerness" case.

Also, C doesn't have anything like the Java instanceof operator.

-------------------------

For another comparison, note that PL/I uses = for both assignment
and comparison, and while assignments don't have value it does allow
multiple assignment in the form:

   x, y, z = 0;

(and with no operator like the C comma operator)

-- glen

Thread

Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-10-24 02:17 -0700
  Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-10-24 03:29 -0700
    Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-10-24 03:38 -0700
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-24 04:30 -0700
    Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-10-24 12:04 +0000
  Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-10-24 04:59 -0700
    Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-24 14:28 +0100
      Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-10-24 07:26 -0700
        Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-24 17:06 +0100
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-10-24 11:56 -0400
    Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-24 12:02 -0700
      Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-24 15:45 -0700
        Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-24 16:28 -0700
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-24 16:44 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-24 19:34 -0700
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-24 19:30 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-24 20:33 -0700
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-28 11:16 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-10-28 15:12 -0400
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-10-29 12:18 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-10-29 21:51 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-30 08:38 -0700
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-30 05:34 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-28 14:08 -0700
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-30 06:14 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-28 21:50 +0000
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-28 15:08 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-28 22:47 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 18:35 -0500
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-28 18:12 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-29 01:35 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 21:12 -0500
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-28 19:52 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-28 18:01 -0700
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-30 03:47 -0700
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2015-10-24 09:54 -0700
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-24 12:13 -0700
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-24 21:50 +0100
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 04:04 -0700
    Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2015-10-25 08:32 -0700
      Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-25 18:19 +0000
      Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 11:30 -0700
        Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-25 18:56 +0000
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 20:59 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Anand Hariharan <mailto.anand.hariharan@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 21:49 -0700
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-26 08:10 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Anand Hariharan <mailto.anand.hariharan@gmail.com> - 2015-10-26 16:05 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-27 00:34 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-27 09:04 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-27 21:24 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-26 18:16 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-27 02:33 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-27 09:08 -0700
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-26 11:22 +0000
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-26 11:35 +0000
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-26 17:00 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-26 17:59 +0000
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-26 07:55 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-26 17:06 +0000
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-26 10:56 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-26 20:14 +0000
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-26 17:09 -0700
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-26 23:39 +0000
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-10-27 12:31 +0000
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-27 12:45 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-27 13:24 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-27 13:41 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-10-27 19:43 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-27 19:47 +0000
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-27 13:20 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-27 13:28 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-27 13:54 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-27 07:51 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-27 16:46 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-27 10:52 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-27 18:51 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-27 12:17 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-27 19:34 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-27 13:10 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-27 13:41 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-27 23:11 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-27 19:02 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-10-28 07:09 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-10-28 11:27 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-27 12:27 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-27 13:18 -0700

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