Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly

From	Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de>
Newsgroups	comp.programming
Subject	Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly
Date	2015-09-03 16:51 +0200
Organization	albasani.net
Message-ID	<ms9mod$hei$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
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Am 03.09.2015 um 05:51 schrieb Robert Wessel:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 02:16:03 +0200, Mok-Kong Shen
> <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> wrote:
[snip]

>> You have agreed on my argument that (assuming the quality of output from
>> AES is uniformly good) the entropy of each output bit is 128/n.
>> Now, for stream encryption with xor, one needs a good so-called
>> key-stream. The ideal case is a sequence of bits of full entropy,
>> i.e. 1.0, which is commonly termed an ideal OTP. The opposite bad
>> case is a sequence of bits having very low value of entropy. Now, if
>> n is even moderately large, say 10000, the output bits in CTR mode
>> will have entropy of 1/10000. Obviously no one would seriously
>> consider doing any stream encryption with a key-stream having such
>> a low value of entropy per bit. However, AES in CTR is generally
>> deemed to be secure in practice. Thus the paradox indicates in my
>> view that employing the concept entropy to discuss security has some
>> fundamental problems in general that anyway yet need clarifications.
>> Have I explained my thoughts clear enough now?
>
>
> OK, I think I now understand what you're asking.
>
> First things first, bartekltg is pretty much right on target.  And as
> I said, the spreading of the input entropy by a PRNG in that sense is
> not actually an interesting question.  You've spread (say) 128 bits of
> "real" entropy over more bits, that's all.  There are many sources of
> random bits where we do need to consider that.  For example when
> generating randomness from a physical source, the actual bits from the
> source will almost always have some, or (more commonly) a lot, of
> bias, and you need to consider how many input bits you need to feed
> into your whitening function in order to get output bits with ~1.00
> bits of "real" entropy (aka "randomness").  If you spread 128 bits of
> entropy over 1024 bits, a process that tries to create something with
> some amount of real randomness, will need to collect eight input bits
> for every output bit.  This applies to prime generation for
> Diffie-Hellman or RSA purposes, for example, where you actually need
> (almost*) 1024 of real randomness in order to generate an actual 1024
> bit random prime.
>
> The entire output of a AES-128 stream (assuming a good key), will
> contain 2**128 bits of entropy.  Used in a stream cipher (as for CTR
> mode), that means the "key" stream will only be one of 2**128 possible
> streams, no matter how long the generated stream is.
>
> The crucial thing is that this is an implausible amount of work, and
> there's no way to easily dig the input entropy (or at least one of the
> internal states) of the stream cipher out of the key stream.
>
> We can for any stream cipher, knowing 128 bits (or more) of the key
> stream (and this includes a block cipher in CTR mode), recover the
> input key in about 2**128 units of work.  That's basically the same as
> a known plaintext attack.
>
> We use ciphers, of all sorts, with that "low" an "entropy" for the
> entire stream constantly.  Where you're mixing things up is that this
> is in a different measurement, namely that of the apparent
> "randomness" of the keystream.  That's commonly called "entropy", but
> it's not.  Or at least it's a different sort.  That "appaerent
> entropy", is what something like diehard will report when you feed it
> the keystream.  That "apparent entropy" is required in a stream cipher
> (any keystream output from a stream cipher had darn well better score
> near 1.00 in diehard - although that's *not* sufficient - any good
> non-CS PRNG will do that), but is not related to "real" entropy, IOW,
> entropy based on randomness.  The fact that diehard reports 1.00 for
> such a stream is a failure of diehard to adequately understand the
> stream.
>
> You're attempting to compare two different things that happen to both
> be commonly called entropy: actual randomness, and the apparent
> randomness of a psuedo-random stream.  If you remember your first
> semester of physics, you've failed to keep your units straight.

Thank you for your kind efforts to help me understand the paradoxical
phenomenon. Excuse me however for my slow learning capability and allow
me to ask a question so that I could be sure of having correctly
captured what you wrote. Is a good "apparent randomness" (e.g. one with
a score near 1.00 from diehard) sufficient for a bit sequence of n
bits to securely encrypt a plaintext bit sequence of n bits with xor?
(A simple yes/no is sufficient for the question. I might under
circumstances have a 2nd question depending on that.)

M. K. Shen

Thread

Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-01 13:09 +0200
  Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-01 14:23 +0000
    Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-01 20:00 +0200
      Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-01 18:43 +0000
        Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 10:48 +0200
          Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-02 13:00 +0000
            Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 22:50 +0200
              Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-02 21:31 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 23:46 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-02 21:58 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 00:13 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-03 00:32 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:47 +0200
              Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 16:52 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 00:03 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 17:18 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 00:28 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 17:52 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 01:04 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 18:29 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 01:04 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 18:25 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 01:33 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 18:53 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:16 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:18 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 02:33 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:42 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 02:55 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 03:03 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 03:14 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 03:17 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 03:30 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 03:36 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 04:13 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 04:19 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 04:32 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 22:51 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 16:51 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-03 10:49 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-04 19:47 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-04 13:42 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-04 21:50 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-04 20:33 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-04 23:45 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 01:24 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-07 00:50 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-07 14:14 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 15:57 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-07 12:19 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-08 23:47 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 02:28 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-04 20:23 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 00:55 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-04 17:11 -0700
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 02:31 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-04 20:15 -0700
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 00:35 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 00:42 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 00:46 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 00:54 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 01:11 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 01:21 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 01:28 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 02:01 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:22 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 02:51 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:57 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 03:08 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 03:31 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 03:45 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 03:54 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 04:18 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 04:24 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-09-03 07:23 +0200
          Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 16:14 -0500
            Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 23:23 +0200
              Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-02 21:33 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 23:54 +0200
          Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 23:22 +0200
            Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 23:32 +0200
              Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 00:22 +0200
  Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-01 13:23 -0700
    Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 11:04 +0200
  Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 02:22 -0500

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