Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly

From	bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.programming
Subject	Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly
Date	2015-09-03 01:04 +0200
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<ms7v9v$m5k$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <c0reua9jbn013grv90b7bpckeq844ljfv6@4ax.com> <ms7ro4$qcm$1@news.albasani.net> <34teuahtcltdi1mrq4gj95bu8gacjv112i@4ax.com> <ms7t6c$sft$1@news.albasani.net> <nrueuap090o6cds3elqata8fsbos63j1md@4ax.com>

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On 03.09.2015 00:52, Robert Wessel wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 00:28:33 +0200, Mok-Kong Shen
> <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 03.09.2015 um 00:18 schrieb Robert Wessel:
>>> On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 00:03:52 +0200, Mok-Kong Shen
>>> <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 02.09.2015 um 23:52 schrieb Robert Wessel:
>>>>> On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 22:50:52 +0200, Mok-Kong Shen
>>>>> <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 02.09.2015 um 15:00 schrieb Kaz Kylheku:
>>>>>>> On 2015-09-02, Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In my code PROVABLEPRIME
>>>>>>>> (http://s13.zetaboards.com/Crypto/topic/7234475/1/) there is no seed
>>>>>>>> to be input by the user at all. When the Python session starts, the
>>>>>>>> system employs the current time to seed its built-in PRNG. So each
>>>>>>>> time one uses the code to e.g. generate RSA keys, one gets a different
>>>>>>>> pair by chance. Certainly one could question the security of that from
>>>>>>>> an "exact" standpoint (I mean in the sense of proofs of pure math),
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The "exact standpoint" here is quite obvious and it is that a sample of the
>>>>>>> current time (even if it includes micro or nanoseconds from a high resolution timer,
>>>>>>> and not only the "seconds sine epoch" or whatever) simply has too few bits of
>>>>>>> entropy to generate good RSA keys.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I must admit that I yet have doubt on such application of the entropy
>>>>>> argument (i.e. without regard to how an amount of entropy is actually
>>>>>> being employed in the processing) due to a paradox that I put up
>>>>>> and described in a recent another thread: AES-128 in counter mode has
>>>>>> an input of max 128 bits of entropy but its ouput is commonly used to
>>>>>> e.g. xor n plaintext bits with n >> 128. The average entropy that is
>>>>>> contained in one ciphertext bit thus can't be greater than 128/n,
>>>>>> which is negligible for even moderately large n. Does that imply that
>>>>>> AES in CTR mode is totally broken?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it simply means that you don't need to do more than about 2**128
>>>>> work to break it with a known plaintext attack of sufficient size
>>>>> (where "sufficient" may be as little as 16 bytes).  But that's not
>>>>> broken, since that's what we were assuming anyway.  Sure, it's not a
>>>>> OTP, but it was never meant to be.
>>>>
>>>> I don't yet understand. One expands a sequence of 128 bits somehow
>>>> to a sequence of n bits with n >> 128. If the input 128 bits have
>>>> a total "entropy" of 128, then it can certainly also be asked how
>>>> much entropy the output n bits have in total and hence the average
>>>> value of entropy of each output bit.
>>>
>>>
>>> If there's 128 bits of entropy going in, that's what's coming out.
>>> Spread over however many bits you output.  IOW, if you encrypt
>>> something with AES-128 in whatever mode (ignoring any nonce or IV),
>>> there will be only 2**128 possible decryptions of the message, no
>>> matter how long it might be.
>>
>> But you are ignoring the "entropy" in your 2nd sentence. My paradox
>> is however centered on "entropy". Each input bit is assumed to have
>> 1 bit of entropy. After spreading, the average entropy can't be
>> larger than 128/n. What is wrong in that calculation logically?
>> That's what I like very much to know from you or Kylheku.
>
>
> I wouldn't use the word average, but there would be about 128/n bits
> of entropy per output bit.
>
> That's not really at question, or very interesting.  If I take a
> gallon of milk, and divide it evenly between 1024 containers, I'll
> have an eighth of an ounce of milk in each container.
>
> I have perhaps missed some part of this discussion.

  <ms7u0f$jem$1@speranza.aioe.org>
  <ms7tk8$is0$1@speranza.aioe.org> //simplified, one candy, I mean bit

One um^3 of milk and other um^3 of milk are independent.
The two chunk of information coded using the same cipher
are not.

There is whole information in both of them, but
if you learn this information from one chunk,
you don't get any new information from second one.


bartekltg

Thread

Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-01 13:09 +0200
  Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-01 14:23 +0000
    Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-01 20:00 +0200
      Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-01 18:43 +0000
        Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 10:48 +0200
          Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-02 13:00 +0000
            Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 22:50 +0200
              Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-02 21:31 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 23:46 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-02 21:58 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 00:13 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-03 00:32 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:47 +0200
              Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 16:52 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 00:03 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 17:18 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 00:28 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 17:52 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 01:04 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 18:29 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 01:04 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 18:25 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 01:33 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 18:53 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:16 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:18 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 02:33 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:42 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 02:55 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 03:03 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 03:14 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 03:17 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 03:30 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 03:36 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 04:13 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 04:19 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 04:32 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 22:51 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 16:51 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-03 10:49 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-04 19:47 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-04 13:42 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-04 21:50 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-04 20:33 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-04 23:45 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 01:24 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-07 00:50 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-07 14:14 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 15:57 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-07 12:19 -0500
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-08 23:47 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 02:28 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-04 20:23 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 00:55 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-04 17:11 -0700
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 02:31 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-04 20:15 -0700
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 00:35 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 00:42 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 00:46 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 00:54 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 01:11 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 01:21 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 01:28 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 02:01 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:22 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 02:51 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 02:57 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 03:08 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 03:31 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 03:45 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 03:54 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 04:18 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-03 04:24 +0200
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-09-03 07:23 +0200
          Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 16:14 -0500
            Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 23:23 +0200
              Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-02 21:33 +0000
                Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 23:54 +0200
          Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 23:22 +0200
            Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 23:32 +0200
              Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly bartekltg <bartek@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 00:22 +0200
  Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-01 13:23 -0700
    Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2015-09-02 11:04 +0200
  Re: Researches in quantum computing seem to progress only extremely slowly Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-02 02:22 -0500

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