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Groups > comp.lang.c > #61886

Re: Understandability

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Understandability
Date 2015-05-12 08:59 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <mis8ap$dsq$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <cbbf622e-3433-44b1-aede-0f5206c063db@googlegroups.com> <87lhgxgvmx.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <611c75e6-443d-425b-93b9-67b35c207220@googlegroups.com> <mipj9b$4gd$1@dont-email.me> <e95d749c-15ca-408c-8419-7d0df53c338f@googlegroups.com>

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On 11/05/15 19:06, David Kleinecke wrote:
> On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 11:48:20 PM UTC-7, David Brown wrote:
>> On 10/05/15 20:05, David Kleinecke wrote:
>>>
>>> I am not sure exactly what "program" means these days. Normally I would
>>> speak of applications (of which gcc is one). Perhaps "program" means a 
>>> "main" function. But I think that is a poor idea for reasons we might 
>>> discuss. 
>>>
>>
>> I think I am also missing the point here.  You haven't really said /why/
>> you want to make a distinction between a standalone single-executable
>> program and a collection of executables such as gcc.  If we understood
>> why this matters to you, it might be possible to give suggestions or ideas.
>>
>> As for what a "program" or "application" means, I am not sure that one
>> can make a concrete definition in this sense.  In particular, it depends
>> on your viewpoint.  From a user's viewpoint, gcc is clearly a program -
>> you run the "gcc" command on your source files, and hopefully get a
>> useful result.  From a compiler developer's viewpoint, gcc is a
>> collection of programs, libraries, headers, target run-time code, linker
>> scripts, etc.
> 
> I don't think in terms of command lines any more (having gone as GUI as
> possible) but I remember them. I think you are using "program" to mean
> a possible first word in a valid command line. I also remember shell
> scripts. These days a user clicks on a button and expects something to
> happen - maybe what happens is a command line is executed. 

Programmers - especially C programmers (or "real" programmers :-) expect
that compilation is done using a command-line program such as "gcc",
typically under the control of "make".  Much of this may be hidden by an
IDE and it's "build" button, but it's not far below the surface - you
can just watch the terminal output window in the IDE.

In the context of compiling, the compiler is a program.  Whether you
view it as a single program on its own, or are concerned with the other
programs it calls along the way, is a matter of perspective.

Your IDE or editor is also a program, which calls other programs as
needed.  Whether you start the programs by command line, clicking on a
start menu, or from within another program, is incidental.

> 
> As a compiler writer myself I am very aware that gcc is a collection. You
> name "programs" as part of the collection - just what is a "program" here?
> 

/You/ are the one making wild statements about what everyone else things
of gcc and whether it is a free-standing or "simple" program, and who is
concerned about a definition of "program" - I believe that you should be
the one to come up with an exact specification.  The rest of us seem
quite happy with a somewhat rough and vague notion.

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Thread

Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-01 17:55 -0700
  Re: Understandability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-01 19:41 -0700
  Re: Understandability wssimms@gmail.com - 2015-05-01 20:45 -0700
  Re: Understandability Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-02 10:38 +0100
    Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-02 09:15 -0700
      Re: Understandability David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-04 09:26 +0200
        Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-04 12:52 -0700
  Re: Understandability Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2015-05-02 14:21 +0200
    Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-02 09:13 -0700
      Re: Understandability Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-05-03 08:07 +1200
      Re: Understandability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-02 13:11 -0700
        Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-03 10:50 -0700
          Re: Understandability Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-03 13:26 -0700
            Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-04 12:29 -0700
              Re: Understandability Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-05 05:47 -0700
        Re: Understandability raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-05-08 21:10 +0000
          Re: Understandability Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-05-09 09:17 +1200
          Re: Understandability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-08 14:32 -0700
            Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-09 09:13 -0700
              Re: Understandability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-09 16:48 -0700
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-10 11:05 -0700
                Re: Understandability David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-11 08:48 +0200
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 09:55 -0700
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-11 17:52 -0400
                Re: Understandability glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-11 22:54 +0000
                Re: Understandability David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-12 08:49 +0200
                Re: Understandability Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-05-12 02:15 -0500
                Re: Understandability Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-05-25 03:15 +0300
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-25 00:45 -0400
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 10:26 -0700
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 10:06 -0700
                Re: Understandability David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-12 08:59 +0200
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 08:37 -0700
                Re: Understandability David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-13 08:53 +0200
                Re: Understandability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-13 08:16 -0700
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 09:49 -0700
                Re: Understandability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-13 10:53 -0700
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 10:35 -0700
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 09:31 -0700
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-13 13:10 -0400
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 10:27 -0700
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-14 22:51 -0400
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 10:02 -0700
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-15 13:37 -0400
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-16 09:18 -0700
                Re: Understandability David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-16 23:56 +0200
                Re: Understandability gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-05-17 12:45 +0000
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-17 09:16 -0700
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-17 12:47 -0400
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 10:54 -0700
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-18 15:00 -0400
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 09:49 -0700
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-19 13:10 -0400
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-16 19:01 -0400
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-17 09:30 -0700
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-17 12:58 -0400
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 10:54 -0700
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-18 14:56 -0400
                Re: Understandability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 09:46 -0700
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-19 13:16 -0400
                Re: Understandability Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-19 18:23 +0100
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-19 14:02 -0400
                Re: Understandability David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 00:11 +0200
                Re: Understandability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-18 18:28 -0400
                Re: Understandability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-15 10:52 -0700
                Re: Understandability David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-13 21:53 +0200
          Re: Understandability David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-09 16:18 +0200
          Re: Understandability Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2015-05-09 18:31 +0200
            Re: Understandability raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-05-17 10:44 +0000
              Re: Understandability glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-17 15:53 +0000
      Re: Understandability David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-04 09:15 +0200
        Re: Understandability Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@math.uni.wroc.pl> - 2015-05-16 00:28 +0000
  Re: Understandability Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-03 10:58 -0700

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