Re: New directions in C

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: New directions in C
Date	2015-04-08 21:27 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<mg3ve5$4ac$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(17 earlier) <a6e24fec-3c85-4f89-aa6f-be83659312c8@googlegroups.com> <mg39vf$9oi$1@dont-email.me> <e062b3aa-ca53-4479-867d-bc20fafb57e4@googlegroups.com> <mg3f5t$vb2$1@dont-email.me> <87wq1mv68b.fsf@kst-u.example.com>

Show all headers | View raw

On 08/04/15 20:13, Keith Thompson wrote:
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>> On 08/04/15 15:44, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>
> [...]
>> We have now established that /data/ comes in to a computer system as
>> integers, even if it is created by measuring a real, continuous,
>> analogue object.  The data is integer or discrete, not real (either in
>> the sense of being a real number, or floating point, or a real object).
>
> It's at least possible for data to come into a computer system in a
> floating-point format.  Of course any such format is made up of discrete
> bits, but it's reasonably thought of as a representation of a real
> value.  I suppose that's probably rare in embedded systems.
>

Certainly.  In "big" systems, it is perfectly reasonable to write a 
program that takes its input in the form of floating point data, 
effectively "real" numbers.  In small embedded systems, floating point 
input data is, as you say, exceedingly rare.  (I realise terms such as 
"small embedded systems" are vague, but the whole discussion here is in 
vague terms.)

As concrete data points, of all the embedded systems I have programmed 
over the last 20 years, I can only think off-hand of 3 that made 
significant use of floating point.  In one case it was justified - the 
control algorithms were significantly clearer in floating point.  In one 
case it was before I had learned better ways of achieving the results 
needed.  And in once case it was to speed up development time (also 
known as "laziness") because the microcontroller on the board happened 
to be massively overpowered for the task, so efficiency was irrelevant. 
  In all these cases, the floating point values were for intermediary 
calculations - not for the data itself.

> [...]
>
>>> Of course we can't have true analogue values in a digital computer. Floating
>>> point numbers are to the mathematician rationals (except for infinity / NaN).
>>
>> No - when you actually need to deal with rationals (which is rare except
>> in highly mathematical programs), you use rationals.  Floating point
>> numbers are convenient approximations to real numbers, not rationals.
>
> I think what Malcolm meant is that all representable floating-point
> values are *mathematically* rational numbers.  Specifically, for a
> typical representation such as IEEE, every representable floating-point
> value (other than infinities and NaNs) can be expressed exactly as a
> ratio of two integers, with the denominator being a power of 2.  They
> are not actually represented as a ratio of two integers (that's another
> possible way to represent a subset of the real numbers, but it's not
> floating-point).

That is technically true, and I think you are probably right that this 
is what Malcolm meant.  But his side-track here was simply another way 
of dodging the issue under discussion.

>
>>> Fixed point / scaled integers are also rationals, but with the fractional part
>>> handled explicitly by the programmer. But everyone on this NG knows that
>>> computers are digital technology.
>>> It was worth pointing out that in the embedded world you often represent
>>> measurements of underlying real values with scaled integers / fixed point.
>>
>> The data comes into the system as integers, and is (for the most part)
>> stored and/or manipulated as integers.  The data is not a "rational",
>> and does not typically have a "fractional part" (fixed-point types being
>> much less common than integers).
>
> C doesn't have built-in support for fixed-point numeric types, but we
> can emulate them.  A 16-bit signed integer representing a voltage level,
> with 0 representing 0 volts, 1 representing 0.125 volts, etc., can be
> thought of either as an integer representing voltage in units of 1/8
> volt *or* as a fixed-point value with an implicit radix point 3 bits
> from the low end representing fractional volts.  They're just two
> different ways of thinking about the same thing.
>

However, although the integer in your example /could/ be considered 
"fixed point", it is akin to calling floating point types "rationals" - 
technically correct, but not actually helpful.  "Fixed point" has a more 
specific meaning in common use in embedded development and perhaps 
especially in DSP development, typically expressed in the Q format 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_%28number_format%29>.

Your voltage data here would normally be considered a "scaled integer" - 
i.e., an integer, with a particular scale of units - rather than a 
"fixed-point" type.

> Ada, for example, does have built-in support fixed-point types.  In Ada,
> you could define either:
>      type Eigth_Volts is range -2**15 .. 2**15-1; -- an integer type
> or
>      type Volts is delta 0.125 range -4096.0 .. 4095.875;
> C doesn't have built-in mechanisms to express that distinction.
>

It would be nice if C had such types.  I guess we have to make them as 
C++ template classes :-)

> [...]
>
> I've taken a brief look at TR-18037-embedded-c.pdf, which adds
> fixed-point types to C.  The _Fract types represent values from -1.0 to
> +1.0 as scaled integers; they have fractional bits and no integral bits.

Yes, they implement types like Q16 and Q1.15

>
> Each of the _Accum types, if I understand it correctly, has both
> fractional and integral bits.  The number of integral bits must be at
> least 8, but is determined by the whim of the implementation.  If type
> `unsigned _Accum` is 32 bits, for example, the implementation might
> choose to give it 16 integral bits and 16 fractional bits; there is then
> no way to define a type with 24 integral bits and 8 fractional bits.
>
> I presume the authors know more about the real-world requirements for
> fixed-point types than I do, but I'm having difficulty imagining that
> that's a good design.  It seems to me that both the width and the
> precision of a fixed-point type should depend on the application.  I
> might need 8 fractional bits for one quantity and 24 fractional bits for
> another quantity in the same application.  Supporting that would mean
> adding new syntax to the language, perhaps something like
>
>      unsigned _Fixed<24, 8>;

You may not be an embedded programmer, but you appear understand the 
issues a lot better than the TR authors!  One would think they would 
have learned that the most important C99 enhancement in the eyes of 
embedded developers was the standardisation of fixed-size types in 
<stdint.h>.

>
> Mixed-type operations are complicated; perhaps that could be handled by
> requiring both operands to have the same type, requiring casts to
> resolve ambiguities.

Usually mixed-type operations can be implemented as a normal integer 
operation followed by a shift (for multiply/divide), or a shift followed 
by the integer operation (for add/subtract).

>
> Fixed-by-integer multiplication and division are easily defined and
> probably nice to have.  Fixed-by-fixed multiplication is more
> complicated, and fixed-by-fixed division can be *really* messy.
>

Thread

New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-14 23:05 +0100
  Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-15 13:08 +1300
    Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 14:49 +0100
    Re: New directions in C Anand Hariharan <mailto.anand.hariharan@gmail.com> - 2015-04-07 10:03 -0700
  Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 01:36 -0700
    Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 02:07 -0700
      Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 11:10 +0100
        Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 10:36 +0000
          Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 11:43 +0100
            Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 11:01 +0000
              Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 13:11 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 12:51 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 06:11 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 13:37 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-03-16 13:44 +0000
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 15:23 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-03-16 15:07 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 10:24 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-03-16 19:36 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 16:19 -0700
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-16 15:51 +0000
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 20:41 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 15:23 +0100
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 15:34 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 15:37 +0100
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 15:48 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 15:52 +0100
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 16:05 +0100
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-17 18:58 +0000
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 12:15 -0700
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 12:31 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-17 16:13 +0000
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 09:50 -0700
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 17:59 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-03-17 17:16 +0000
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 18:24 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-03-17 17:46 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-17 18:02 +0000
                Re: New directions in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-17 18:58 +0000
                Re: New directions in C fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-03-17 13:04 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-18 01:17 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-03-18 14:58 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-03-17 11:38 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-03-17 22:59 -0400
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2015-03-18 09:05 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-03-18 08:56 -0400
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-18 10:27 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-03-17 09:35 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 17:44 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-18 01:11 -0700
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-21 22:14 +0000
              Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 05:24 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-17 16:50 +1300
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 07:21 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-17 01:50 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-18 21:22 +1300
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-18 01:55 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-18 22:08 +1300
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-18 07:01 -0700
              Re: New directions in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-03-16 08:27 -0400
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 13:31 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-16 09:47 -0500
                Re: New directions in C Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-03-16 17:16 +0000
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-21 22:15 +0000
                Re: New directions in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-03-23 12:41 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-23 10:20 -0700
          Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-16 12:54 +0100
            Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-03-16 09:30 -0700
              Re: New directions in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-03-16 13:14 -0400
              Jacob (Was: New directions in C) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-03-16 18:07 +0000
          Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 15:27 +0100
            Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-16 16:26 +0100
              Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 10:09 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-03-16 11:14 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-17 13:42 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 14:59 +0100
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 15:27 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 15:34 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-17 16:18 +0000
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-21 22:35 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-22 01:23 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-22 11:00 +0000
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-29 16:56 +0000
                Re: New directions in C asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-03-29 10:04 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-29 10:56 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-29 19:30 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-29 12:25 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-29 20:46 +0100
                Re: New directions in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-29 21:46 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-30 07:43 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 00:33 +0200
                Re: New directions in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-06 23:13 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-07 15:46 +1200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-07 01:37 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-07 21:08 +1200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-07 02:52 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-07 11:09 +0100
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 13:18 +0200
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 13:03 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-07 06:16 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 16:18 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-07 07:37 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 23:31 +0200
                Re: New directions in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-18 00:45 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-07 22:40 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-08 16:57 +1200
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 09:14 +0200
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 14:14 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 01:52 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-08 21:36 +1200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 02:51 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-08 22:23 +1200
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 13:14 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 04:27 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 14:29 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 06:01 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 15:21 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 06:44 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 16:50 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 08:19 -0700
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-08 10:55 -0700
                Re: New directions in C asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-04-08 22:27 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-08 11:13 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 21:27 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-08 13:12 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-09 09:34 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-09 00:59 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-09 12:31 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-09 08:41 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-08 22:48 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-08 19:03 -0500
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-09 10:01 +0200
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-09 09:50 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-09 01:18 -0700
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-08 12:32 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-08 08:49 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 06:15 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-10 23:18 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-10 23:50 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-11 15:02 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-11 06:44 -0700
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-12 16:53 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-11 10:01 -0500
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-11 09:23 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-11 13:53 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-12 02:08 -0500
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-12 03:02 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-12 17:07 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-13 01:59 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-13 08:13 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-13 06:50 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-15 09:12 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 07:33 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-16 22:03 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 04:00 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-18 17:26 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 09:46 -0700
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 14:38 +0000
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 14:16 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-11 11:57 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-08 08:36 -0400
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 15:01 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-07 04:58 -0500
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-07 11:16 +0100
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 13:30 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-07 12:03 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-07 11:32 -0500
                Re: New directions in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-07 17:12 +0000
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2015-03-29 19:41 +0200
                Re: New directions in C Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-03-29 18:21 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-29 21:29 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-29 14:26 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-03-29 19:10 -0500
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-30 09:48 +0000
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2015-03-30 13:14 +0200
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-06 12:39 +0000
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-29 10:53 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> - 2015-04-09 18:17 -0700
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-10 01:08 -0700
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 17:44 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-10 02:06 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-10 10:21 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-10 10:31 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-10 11:26 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-10 11:53 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-10 12:22 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-10 12:46 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-10 13:46 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-10 13:51 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-10 18:54 +0000
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-10 13:11 -0700
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-10 14:10 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 17:46 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-11 23:38 +0100
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 16:35 -0700
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 17:19 -0700
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-12 00:54 -0700
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-12 01:29 -0700
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 17:32 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 23:33 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2015-04-10 09:23 -0300
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-10 13:31 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-10 13:29 -0500
                Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-10 12:12 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-10 13:46 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-10 18:30 -0500
                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-11 12:21 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-12 01:01 -0500
                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-12 13:03 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-12 23:29 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-12 18:54 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-13 00:52 -0500
                Re: New directions in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-13 08:39 -0400
                Re: New directions in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-14 02:44 -0500
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 15:02 +0100
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 15:07 +0100
                Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-17 16:09 +0100
                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-21 22:19 +0000
            Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 18:05 +0000
          Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-17 15:55 +1300
            Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-17 08:48 +0000
              Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-17 03:01 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-17 10:32 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-18 01:32 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-18 21:33 +1300
                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-18 08:55 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-18 22:13 +1300
              Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-18 21:31 +1300
        Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 09:35 -0700
        Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 09:49 -0700
  Re: New directions in C Lőrinczy Zsigmond <zsiga@nospam.for.me> - 2015-03-16 10:07 +0100
    Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 10:51 +0100
      Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 10:25 +0000
        Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-16 11:32 +0000
          Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-16 13:06 +0100
            Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 05:35 -0700
          Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-16 13:46 +0000
          Re: New directions in C Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-03-16 17:07 +0000
            Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 10:19 -0700
              Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-17 16:37 +1300
        Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 05:42 -0700
    Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-16 10:55 +0000
    Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 09:41 -0700
  Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-18 08:29 -0700

csiph-web