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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #33778

Re: Metrics on stack usage

From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Metrics on stack usage
Date 2014-10-09 02:35 +0200
Organization 1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID <m14l8m$fr9$1@online.de> (permalink)
References (17 earlier) <m0t4sa$nj4$1@dont-email.me> <m0ul6o$76u$1@online.de> <m109fo$2f1$1@dont-email.me> <m10stb$fh9$1@online.de> <m1310n$vum$1@dont-email.me>

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rickman wrote:

> Ok, so he is an idiot.  That explains why his mistakes were not detected
> by the compiler and why he didn't find the error until he had written
> 5000 lines of code.  What does this have to do with VHDL or any other
> language?

Because the entire argument about this typechecking nonsense is that the 
compiler will find the errors in the program.  Fact is: It won't even find 
silly errors, but introduce *more* errors.  Of course, and that's the 
standard bigot argument, only when abused by idiots.  The clever people 
never make those mistakes.  BTW: all the really clever people I know off 
create hardware by writing their own EDA system and then they directly 
produce the GDSII without HDL in between.

But the whole point about a typesafe language *is* that it helps to find all 
the idiotic mistakes people make, by simply compiling the source.

And yes, all my other coworkers did struggle with the typechecker of VHDL, 
as did I.  I'm therefore for sure not in the league of intelligence to use 
VHDL properly, so I gave up and used Verilog instead (I gave up pretty 
soon).  It worked rather well for me and for my coworkers at Mikron, who did 
the switch some time after I arrived there (already existing projects still 
in VHDL).  One annoying thing about VHDL back then was that after you had 
synthesized it, you had a Verilog netlist, and to test your synthesized 
code, you needed a Verilog testbench, while to test your pre-synthesized 
code, you needed a VHDL testbench (cosimulation of Verilog+VHDL was so much 
of a PITA that you didn't want to do it; it took days to set up, was very 
fragile, took ages to compile, etc.).  Good luck to have the two testbenches 
match, and of course, that also contributed to the additional effort of 
using VHDL.

Verilog is also easier to learn, which means all those idiots out there (me 
included) will get it, while they will fail at VHDL.  Seriously: Being easy 
to learn is a very important feature of a language, something Forth seems to 
be failing at, too.

Verilog is pretty poor as testbench for complex systems, which is why 
SystemVerilog was introduced.  But actually, most people use MatLab, C++, 
Python, or other languages (I used Forth and C++) for this purpose; these 
are much better, even though the integration into the simulator is worse 
(usually either run the program beforehand to generate test patterns, or 
afterwards to analyze the resuts of the run).  However, Verilog excels at 
low-level stuff, where you operate with transistor primitives, drive 
strengths and such.  I found that quite useful to model somewhat more 
complex IO pads, and VHDL simply can't do that stuff.  Same issue as with 
gate level models: VHDL just doesn't go down to the low-level stuff.

When I worked for Siemens HL (now Infineon), they used VHDL exclusively.  
When I search for digital design jobs there now, they still want VHDL 
knowledge, but also Verilog and SystemVerilog.  Similar for other companies 
which had used VHDL exclusively in the past.  The switch has been done, the 
requirement to know VHDL is usually, because maintaining legacy projects is 
part of your job.  Or some government contract still requires you to use 
VHDL.  The industry in Europe used to be pretty much VHDL only, when Cooley 
was doing his shootouts, but that's no longer the case.

In any case, dismissing the "most Verilog participants did get a result that 
passed the test bench after 90 minutes, but none of the VHDL participants 
did" is still strong.  There is a significant difference in programmer 
productivity, we all know that there are slow and fast programmers, the 
difference is significant.  If there wasn't a big difference in VHDL and 
Verilog productivity, we would have had at least one of the VHDL 
participants to finish in time, or we wouldn't have so many Verilog 
participants to finish.  The fact that the winning entry passed the 
testbench, but didn't meet the spec is a straw man: The criteria for winning 
was to pass the testbench.  Not passing the spec.  All hardware projects are 
like this: you tape out when you pass the testbench, because that's a doable 
job; passing the spec is impossible, because there's no formal method to 
proof that you did.

Of course the elegant explanation why the VHDL programmers all didn't get a 
result is that they were idiots.  I'm happy with that (choosing VHDL for 
such a contest shows you are an idiot), and you are happy with that (VHDL 
would have won if they weren't idiots).  It's just like the usefulness of 
the typechecker: It's only useful for non-idiots (idiots will screw it up), 
but it is there to prevent idiots from making mistakes - as you said, you 
need to be more cunning to make a Verilog program to work, because there, no 
typechecker helps you.

> I don't know why you can't see the difference between the poor user and a
> poor language.

That's victim blaming for me.  You simply can't accept that the same people 
who had a lot of problems with VHDL did quite fine with Verilog, which shows 
that they, as people, weren't the problem.  It was the language.

If VHDL was an amplifier like Forth, i.e. a programming language which makes 
idiots perform worse, and cunning people perform better, then you wouldn't 
see the picture we have seen.  You would have those 5 VHDL participants of 
Cooleys shootout win hands down, because they were the 5 cunning guys who 
use VHDL to beat the average Verilog people hands down, while these average 
people had chosen Verilog, because they can't do VHDL.  We had seen that 
picture with those embedded programming shootouts, where the Forth teams 
won, and won, and won again, until the competition finally stopped being 
interesting, because they were more cunning, and their language of choice 
supported them - and the average programmer just didn't get the language.

It might be that Verilog is an amplifier; however, given how much easier 
people perceive it is to learn, I much doubt it.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Thread

Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 11:22 -0400
  Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-16 11:41 -0400
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 13:20 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-16 13:39 -0400
        Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 15:11 -0400
          Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-16 17:24 -0400
            Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-17 17:58 -0400
  Re: Metrics on stack usage barrym95838@yahoo.com - 2014-09-16 08:47 -0700
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 14:41 -0400
    Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-09-16 18:55 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-16 14:33 -1000
        Re: Metrics on stack usage barrym95838@yahoo.com - 2014-09-16 18:30 -0700
  Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-16 15:44 +0000
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 13:22 -0400
  Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-16 09:18 -0700
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 15:39 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-16 09:41 -1000
      Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-16 16:11 -0700
        Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-17 16:34 -0400
        Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-17 17:26 -0400
          Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-19 07:21 -0400
            Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-19 10:01 -0400
              Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-19 07:42 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-19 14:46 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-19 08:09 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 03:41 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-20 15:31 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 14:53 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-22 16:44 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 15:52 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-09-30 00:08 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 04:26 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-22 10:48 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-22 12:26 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-22 17:07 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-17 07:20 +0000
        Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-17 17:03 -0400
          Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-18 11:40 +0000
            Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-19 09:56 -0400
            Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-22 10:54 -0400
              Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-22 15:13 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-22 13:58 -0400
              Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-22 11:13 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-22 21:59 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-22 16:57 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-23 00:59 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-22 19:53 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-23 03:48 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-23 16:01 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-23 08:07 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-09-23 22:11 +0100
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-23 16:22 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-23 11:28 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-24 11:56 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-24 13:52 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-24 17:00 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-24 17:04 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2014-09-24 16:08 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-24 12:23 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-29 19:33 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-25 10:02 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-25 18:48 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-24 16:58 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-24 16:02 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-24 19:14 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-29 10:15 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-24 13:54 -1000
                Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-09-24 21:07 -0400
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-24 15:25 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-24 18:43 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-24 16:08 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 01:11 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-01 09:53 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-29 13:38 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-29 17:53 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-30 09:13 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-30 22:37 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-03 16:10 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-03 08:42 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-03 14:59 -0400
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-03 09:07 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-03 17:28 -0400
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-04 11:15 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-10-07 23:37 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-07 15:07 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-10-11 23:32 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-12 03:03 +0200
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-12 10:42 -0500
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-13 00:26 +0200
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-11 19:30 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-08 03:42 +0200
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-08 02:46 -0500
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-09 00:43 +0200
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-10-11 23:32 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-09-28 18:45 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2014-09-25 09:22 +0200
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-09-28 17:09 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-09-25 01:43 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 01:15 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-25 10:19 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 01:06 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 04:25 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 03:15 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 14:43 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-25 22:23 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-29 13:42 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-29 14:23 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-29 10:14 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-29 17:10 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-29 12:31 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-29 21:07 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-05 01:34 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-05 03:29 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-10-05 13:46 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-05 15:49 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-06 03:44 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-06 00:12 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-05 18:56 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-06 01:34 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-06 19:57 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-07 04:49 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-07 16:21 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-08 05:43 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-09 02:35 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-08 21:48 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-10 05:03 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 01:07 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-10 21:27 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-11 00:01 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 19:59 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-11 03:33 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 22:30 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-11 15:22 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-11 22:24 -0400
                Loading libraries (was: Metrics on stack usage) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-11 09:23 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-10 16:11 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-10 16:36 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 22:38 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-17 23:39 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-10-11 12:25 +0100
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-07 07:52 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 00:34 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-01 23:26 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-01 16:15 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-01 21:57 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-02 01:20 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-02 15:59 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-02 19:29 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-10-03 15:03 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-05 02:27 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-10-05 09:22 +0100
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-23 19:36 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-24 13:40 -0700
  Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-16 17:06 +0000
  Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-16 07:43 -1000
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 15:04 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-16 09:34 -1000
        Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-17 17:30 -0400
          Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-17 12:42 -1000
            Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-18 11:33 +0000
              Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-18 11:53 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-19 01:14 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-19 03:32 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-19 12:41 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-19 12:14 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-20 15:41 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage mhx@iae.nl - 2014-09-19 12:31 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-21 12:59 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-19 12:05 +0000
              Re: Metrics on stack usage Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2014-09-21 07:44 +0200
  Re: Metrics on stack usage Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-09-17 11:10 +0200
  Re: Metrics on stack usage stephen@mpeforth.com - 2014-09-17 14:20 -0700
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-17 17:41 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-17 16:44 -0700
        Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-18 10:26 +0000
          Re: Metrics on stack usage Celeros <kerneels@gmail.com> - 2014-09-19 00:12 +0200
            Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-18 19:15 -0400
            Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-18 17:14 -0700
              Re: Metrics on stack usage stephen@mpeforth.com - 2014-09-19 02:59 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-19 12:20 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage stephen@mpeforth.com - 2014-09-20 09:04 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-29 18:08 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-09-30 04:33 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-01 19:30 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-30 11:24 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-30 10:55 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-30 18:39 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-10-01 01:44 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-01 03:57 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-01 18:45 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-02 07:53 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage G Smith <do.not.use@tectimco.com> - 2014-10-02 13:22 +0100
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-02 08:36 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-02 15:34 -0700
            Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-19 12:08 +0000
              Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-09-19 18:58 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-19 13:28 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-09-19 19:57 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-21 13:09 +0000
              Re: Metrics on stack usage Celeros <kerneels@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 13:27 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 08:04 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-20 08:55 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 15:01 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-20 17:34 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 19:15 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-21 03:34 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 06:57 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-21 07:31 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 18:04 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-21 15:17 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 18:49 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-21 15:57 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 19:47 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-22 02:58 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 05:28 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-21 11:24 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 07:55 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2014-09-20 14:57 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-20 15:22 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-20 15:25 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 15:08 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-20 17:38 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 19:19 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-21 03:35 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 07:00 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Celeros <kerneels@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 08:54 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 03:26 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Celeros <kerneels@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 10:03 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 05:29 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage stephen@mpeforth.com - 2014-09-19 02:53 -0700

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