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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #33710

Re: Metrics on stack usage

From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Metrics on stack usage
Date 2014-10-06 03:44 +0200
Organization 1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID <m0ss5f$r0s$1@online.de> (permalink)
References (11 earlier) <m0chsr$q9i$1@dont-email.me> <-Y2dnV2LFsciQLTJnZ2dnUU7-eOdnZ2d@supernews.com> <m0cvou$hh8$1@dont-email.me> <m0q05g$hn9$1@online.de> <m0s7cl$ve6$1@dont-email.me>

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rickman wrote:

> On 10/4/2014 7:34 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote:
>> rickman wrote:
>>> Yes, well not so many use Ada either, but I'm pretty sure the ones who
>>> do feel type checking reduces their debugging time.
>>
>> Well, maybe it actually does.  As I posted here, the students I've met at
>> the GNU Hacker's Meeting in mid August said it is so tedious and time-
>> consuming to write and execute tests (in the languages they are used to)
>> that they perceive it as beneficial that the compiler at least does some
>> typechecking.  Their world is an edit-compile-link-go world, where you
>> don't have instant compilation and no interactive command line either.
> 
> I don't know that I would use the opinions of students as a good metric.
>   Their skill levels are fairly low compared to professional
> programmers.  I expect their tastes will change as their skill levels
> change.

I don't think so.  Preferrences are set pretty early in education.

> I'm not sure the "fast turnaround time" is that big an advantage.  I
> seem to recall the last time I used a C compiler that it produced
> results in a small number of seconds.  But then I suppose that depends
> on the size of the program.

Sure.  And maybe you underestimate the effect of "a few seconds": The flow 
of thinking is definitely broken if you insert a pause of 3 seconds.  That 
is some sort of "upper limit" of time you can wait for, but it's much better 
if you have a delay no more than 0.3 seconds.  You should listen to people 
who do GUIs and do the actual measurements about how non-responsive 
functions cause problems; this sort of "instant feedback" you get from Forth 
is really important.

> The VHDL compiler I use is pretty fast and that is strongly typed like
> ADA.  I don't see a significant impact from a 5 second compile time.

You get distracted.  Maybe you just can't compare to the 0.5 second compile 
time compiler, because you don't have one, so you don't know how bad that 
is.  If someone inserts an arbitrary 5 seconds delay into your workflow, it 
breaks your mental flow of thoughts.

Of course, waiting another 10 times longer (50 seconds) would break your 
thoughts even more.  You might want to check your e-mails, or Facebook or 
whatever.  5 minutes are even worse, you would do something completely 
unrelated like playing a casual game or such.  This sort of thing is really 
bad for productivity, as an old Chinese saying goes: "you can't concentrate 
on two things".

>> And then you figure out that you urgently want some help from the
>> compiler,
>> because your programs all don't run.  And the typecheck is giving that,
>> at least it is giving you the illusion of the compiler doing something -
>> complaining and making you change the program before you run it.
> 
> I don't know about "illusion".  I think the sort of problems I would
> have in VHDL from mismatched types can often be the sort that you spend
> significant debug time finding.

Verilog is about 3 times as productive as VHDL for the same problem space.  
This factor 3 is real data, backed up by research and papers.  In contrast 
to VHDL, Verilog has essentially two synthesizable types, bits and bit 
vectors, and there's no problem to assign one to the other.  The compiler 
might give a warning if you assing vectors of different width.

So when a pretty much untyped language is known to be more productive in 
exactly the same field as a strongly typed language, there's something wrong 
with the idea that strong typing helps.

The first year I worked in the semiconductor industry, I was working for 
Siemens, and they used VHDL.  All those typechecking simply got in the way.  
E.g. the author of the code specified an integer in the range 0..15 as index 
into a register file.  An index into an array needs to be an integer, for 
whatever stupid reason it can't be a bit vector.  Of course, the actual 
selector of the register is a bit vector, it just gets converted to this 
integer.  And then, the integer is incremented to get to the next register, 
and the desired operaion is "wrap around".  This doesn't happen, it leads to 
an overflow.  The author of the code went through 5000 lines of code, to 
replace all "+1" of these integers (he had several) with an "when 15 then 0 
else +1" idiom.

Obviously, what he did want was a modulo 16 integer.  Verilog gives you 
that, it's a 4 bit vector.  VHDL doesn't give you that - you can either have 
std_(u)logic, which can't be used as index, or you use an integer subtype, 
which can't wrap around.  This sort of stuff is just plain idiotic and kills 
productivity.

I then changed employer, and as one of the first actions at the new one, I 
politely suggested switching from VHDL to Verilog.  We did, and the other 
programmers were happy; the productivity increase by a factor 3 is real.  My 
experience of VHDL as opposed to Verilog is that you struggle much more to 
get it to compile, without any benefit (the type checking just is annoying).  
This is not limited to the typechecking, as in VHDL, there's way more 
boilerplate needed to instantiate a module, so people don't make small 
modules.  But making small modules makes debugging so much easier!

> Certainly Forth makes easy debugging easy.  The sort of range checking
> that people talk about requires significant thought.  By the time I am
> writing a test bench for my VHDL I have already done all the hard work
> and writing the code is not a big deal.

Yes, VHDL perception.  It was hard to get the stuff to compile... and with 
the incentive to write big modules, you need to spent a lot of time before 
you actually can test it... and because you don't know any better, you think 
you've found the optimum.

> If I want the code to
> automatically detect errors I have to spend even more time thinking
> about it.  I expect this is also true for Forth, but I am much less
> experience than most who use Forth.

That's not how people write code in Forth - automatically detect errors?

> Are you saying the tool craps out on the compile, but doesn't tell you
> where the mistake is?  You can always have bad tools, that doesn't make
> the idea poor.

This is due to the very nature of concatenated code: If you specify a stack 
effect, and the code doesn't have the stack effect, an automated tool can't 
tell you where the mistake is.  How should it?  The parameter passing is all 
implicit, so the tool can't know.

>> So that's my story why typechecking is not useful in Forth - because you
>> have something else, something better: Hands on to your code.
> 
> If the tool can save you from having to lay your hands on the code, that
> can be useful and time saving.  People take the attitude that type
> checking prevents you from doing things... that is not correct in my
> experience.  Type checking simply requires that your code be written to
> clearly show what your intent is rather than relying on default
> behaviors which may depend on implementation details.

Or not, as Verilog shows: The default behaviors there are specified, and it 
just behaves reasonable - you simply don't have to typecast, it just works.  
This sort of "explicit is better than implicit" is pretty much the opposite 
of Forth, where, as said above, even the parameter passing is all implicit.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Thread

Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 11:22 -0400
  Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-16 11:41 -0400
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 13:20 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-16 13:39 -0400
        Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 15:11 -0400
          Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-16 17:24 -0400
            Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-17 17:58 -0400
  Re: Metrics on stack usage barrym95838@yahoo.com - 2014-09-16 08:47 -0700
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 14:41 -0400
    Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-09-16 18:55 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-16 14:33 -1000
        Re: Metrics on stack usage barrym95838@yahoo.com - 2014-09-16 18:30 -0700
  Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-16 15:44 +0000
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 13:22 -0400
  Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-16 09:18 -0700
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 15:39 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-16 09:41 -1000
      Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-16 16:11 -0700
        Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-17 16:34 -0400
        Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-17 17:26 -0400
          Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-19 07:21 -0400
            Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-19 10:01 -0400
              Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-19 07:42 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-19 14:46 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-19 08:09 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 03:41 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-20 15:31 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 14:53 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-22 16:44 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 15:52 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-09-30 00:08 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 04:26 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-22 10:48 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-22 12:26 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-22 17:07 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-17 07:20 +0000
        Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-17 17:03 -0400
          Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-18 11:40 +0000
            Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-19 09:56 -0400
            Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-22 10:54 -0400
              Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-22 15:13 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-22 13:58 -0400
              Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-22 11:13 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-22 21:59 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-22 16:57 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-23 00:59 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-22 19:53 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-23 03:48 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-23 16:01 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-23 08:07 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-09-23 22:11 +0100
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-23 16:22 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-23 11:28 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-24 11:56 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-24 13:52 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-24 17:00 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-24 17:04 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2014-09-24 16:08 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-24 12:23 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-29 19:33 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-25 10:02 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-25 18:48 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-24 16:58 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-24 16:02 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-24 19:14 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-29 10:15 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-24 13:54 -1000
                Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-09-24 21:07 -0400
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-24 15:25 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-24 18:43 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-24 16:08 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 01:11 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-01 09:53 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-29 13:38 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-29 17:53 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-30 09:13 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-30 22:37 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-03 16:10 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-03 08:42 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-03 14:59 -0400
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-03 09:07 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-03 17:28 -0400
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-04 11:15 -0700
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-10-07 23:37 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-07 15:07 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-10-11 23:32 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-12 03:03 +0200
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-12 10:42 -0500
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-13 00:26 +0200
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-11 19:30 -1000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-08 03:42 +0200
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-08 02:46 -0500
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-09 00:43 +0200
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-10-11 23:32 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-09-28 18:45 +0000
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2014-09-25 09:22 +0200
                Re: Typing, was [Re: Metrics on stack usage] Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-09-28 17:09 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-09-25 01:43 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 01:15 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-25 10:19 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 01:06 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 04:25 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 03:15 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 14:43 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-25 22:23 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-29 13:42 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-29 14:23 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-29 10:14 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-29 17:10 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-29 12:31 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-29 21:07 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-05 01:34 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-05 03:29 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-10-05 13:46 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-05 15:49 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-06 03:44 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-06 00:12 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-05 18:56 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-06 01:34 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-06 19:57 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-07 04:49 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-07 16:21 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-08 05:43 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-09 02:35 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-08 21:48 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-10 05:03 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 01:07 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-10 21:27 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-11 00:01 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 19:59 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-11 03:33 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 22:30 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-11 15:22 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-11 22:24 -0400
                Loading libraries (was: Metrics on stack usage) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-11 09:23 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-10 16:11 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-10 16:36 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 22:38 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-17 23:39 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-10-11 12:25 +0100
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-07 07:52 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-25 00:34 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-01 23:26 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-01 16:15 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-01 21:57 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-02 01:20 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-02 15:59 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-02 19:29 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-10-03 15:03 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-05 02:27 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-10-05 09:22 +0100
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-23 19:36 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-24 13:40 -0700
  Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-16 17:06 +0000
  Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-16 07:43 -1000
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-16 15:04 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-16 09:34 -1000
        Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-17 17:30 -0400
          Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-17 12:42 -1000
            Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-18 11:33 +0000
              Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-18 11:53 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-19 01:14 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-19 03:32 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-19 12:41 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-19 12:14 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-20 15:41 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage mhx@iae.nl - 2014-09-19 12:31 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-21 12:59 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-19 12:05 +0000
              Re: Metrics on stack usage Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2014-09-21 07:44 +0200
  Re: Metrics on stack usage Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-09-17 11:10 +0200
  Re: Metrics on stack usage stephen@mpeforth.com - 2014-09-17 14:20 -0700
    Re: Metrics on stack usage Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-09-17 17:41 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-17 16:44 -0700
        Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-18 10:26 +0000
          Re: Metrics on stack usage Celeros <kerneels@gmail.com> - 2014-09-19 00:12 +0200
            Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-18 19:15 -0400
            Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-18 17:14 -0700
              Re: Metrics on stack usage stephen@mpeforth.com - 2014-09-19 02:59 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-19 12:20 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage stephen@mpeforth.com - 2014-09-20 09:04 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-29 18:08 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-09-30 04:33 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-01 19:30 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-30 11:24 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-09-30 10:55 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-30 18:39 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-10-01 01:44 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-01 03:57 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-01 18:45 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-02 07:53 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage G Smith <do.not.use@tectimco.com> - 2014-10-02 13:22 +0100
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-02 08:36 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-02 15:34 -0700
            Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-19 12:08 +0000
              Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-09-19 18:58 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-09-19 13:28 -1000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-09-19 19:57 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-21 13:09 +0000
              Re: Metrics on stack usage Celeros <kerneels@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 13:27 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 08:04 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-20 08:55 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 15:01 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-20 17:34 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 19:15 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-21 03:34 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 06:57 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-21 07:31 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 18:04 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-21 15:17 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 18:49 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-09-21 15:57 -0700
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 19:47 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-22 02:58 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 05:28 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-09-21 11:24 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 07:55 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2014-09-20 14:57 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-20 15:22 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-09-20 15:25 +0000
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 15:08 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-20 17:38 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-20 19:19 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-21 03:35 -0500
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-21 07:00 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Celeros <kerneels@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 08:54 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 03:26 -0400
                Re: Metrics on stack usage Celeros <kerneels@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 10:03 +0200
                Re: Metrics on stack usage rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-09-22 05:29 -0400
      Re: Metrics on stack usage stephen@mpeforth.com - 2014-09-19 02:53 -0700

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