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| From | Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function |
| Date | 2011-10-29 11:26 -0700 |
| Organization | None to speak of |
| Message-ID | <lnzkgjk626.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> (permalink) |
| References | <14abde31-4573-45e7-bdaf-eb70b22741d7@z28g2000pro.googlegroups.com> <j8f16r$pgt$1@reader1.panix.com> <j8f2fn$vhu$1@dont-email.me> <lnhb2slp7p.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> <j8gpuk$p58$1@dont-email.me> |
"BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> "Keith Thompson" <kst-u@mib.org> wrote in message
> news:lnhb2slp7p.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org...
>> "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>>>Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just write:
>>>
>>> memcpy(A, B, N);
>>>
>>> and know that no copying is done when any argument is null or zero?
>>> Having a
>>> null source or destination is not necessarily an error (and if it is, you
>>> check it conventionally).
>>
>> One could make exactly the same argument for a simple assignment
>> (without the N, of course). Perhaps it would be simpler to be able to
>> write:
>>
>> *A = *B;
>>
>> and have it quietly do nothing if either A or B is a null pointer.
>
> With a basic language statement like assignment, you wouldn't expect it to
> be backed up with logic to make sure operands are not null. And it can't be
> called remotely, where there would be no opportunity for the writer of the
> *A=*B to put in extra checks.
>
> A function (any function really, rather than just memcpy) is different; it
> can be called remotely, and it is easy to add checks, and to define specific
> behaviours.
memcpy(), in a very real sense, is a basic language feature. Yes, it's
in the library rather than in the core language, but its performance is
just as important as the performance of an assignment.
And having memcpy() check for null pointers and do nothing makes certain
errors *more difficult to detect*. If I write
memcpy(target, source, size);
and either target or source happens to be a null pointer, it's almost
certainly because I made a mistake. A memcpy() that hides that mistake
from me isn't doing me any favors; it's by no means certain that doing
nothing is the correct behavior that will "fix" the bug.
>> as others have said in parallel followups, when you're writing a
>> statement that copies data, you should generally have enough awareness
>> of the context to *know* that there's actually something to be copied.
>>
>> Do you actually find yourself making such checks in your own code?
>
> Yes. Both when calling C functions (and often these are called from
> higher-level scripting languages, which use null for empty strings, and can
> crash when directly calling a C function), and when writing my own functions
> where the caller cannot quite be trusted 100%, and even then I might put
> checks in anyway as I don't know what other callers might do in future.
Are these scripting languages of your own design? Perhaps using null
for empty strings wasn't the best choice. Is there a way to represent
an empty string using a non-null pointer? If so, do you really gain
much benefit from having two distinct representations for the same
thing? You'd have to do extra checks on almost every string operation.
Perhaps you have a good reason for doing it that way -- but then you
have to expect some overhead.
As for untrusted callers, when you check for an error condition, you
have to know how to handle it. How do you know that the way you handle
it (say, doing nothing for a null pointer) is the correct behavior?
> Of course these are not always as performance-critical as memcpy() where
> there is less room for manoeuvre. I can understand that requiring extra
> checks means the compiler cannot, for example, optimise a 4-byte memcpy into
> a couple of inline instructions.
Welcome to C.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
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about NULL as a parameter to a libc function gaoqiang <gaoqiangscut@gmail.com> - 2011-10-28 01:49 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Mark Bluemel <mark_bluemel@pobox.com> - 2011-10-28 10:14 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function gaoqiang <gaoqiangscut@gmail.com> - 2011-10-28 03:22 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Mark Bluemel <mark_bluemel@pobox.com> - 2011-10-28 11:29 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-10-29 07:08 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-28 07:05 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-28 14:15 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function gordonb.4o15x@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-10-28 16:36 -0500
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-10-28 17:30 -0500
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function jgharston <jgh@arcade.demon.co.uk> - 2011-10-31 10:40 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-28 22:32 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-10-29 06:20 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-10-29 15:40 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-10-30 08:05 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-28 14:13 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-29 15:11 +0300
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-10-29 06:41 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-29 11:29 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-10-28 02:36 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Mike Manilone <mike@laptop.mike> - 2011-10-28 12:58 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-28 11:00 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2011-11-03 11:13 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-10-29 06:37 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2011-11-03 11:00 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-03 12:54 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-03 17:08 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-03 13:18 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-03 17:28 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-03 13:48 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-03 17:55 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-03 14:12 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function blp@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff) - 2011-11-03 11:22 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-03 14:28 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-03 19:47 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-03 16:19 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-01-24 22:13 -0800
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Ike Naar <ike@sverige.freeshell.org> - 2011-11-03 18:20 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Ike Naar <ike@sverige.freeshell.org> - 2011-11-03 18:34 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-03 19:49 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-03 16:21 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2011-11-03 22:19 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-01-24 22:17 -0800
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-01-24 21:19 -0800
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-10-28 14:26 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-10-28 12:46 -0600
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-28 14:19 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-28 16:37 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-28 07:22 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2011-11-03 10:40 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-03 15:10 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-11-04 03:03 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-10-28 08:42 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-10-28 16:31 +0200
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-10-28 20:29 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-29 14:49 +0300
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Ike Naar <ike@sverige.freeshell.org> - 2011-10-29 13:41 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2011-10-28 19:53 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-10-28 21:13 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2011-10-28 20:33 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-28 16:56 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function blp@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff) - 2011-10-28 14:30 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-28 16:45 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-28 15:35 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-10-29 13:00 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-29 11:26 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-10-29 20:24 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-29 14:03 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-10-29 07:30 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2011-11-03 11:26 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-03 12:59 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-03 13:42 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-28 20:17 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2011-10-28 18:51 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-28 21:40 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-28 17:09 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-29 15:03 +0300
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-29 09:42 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-28 21:18 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-10-28 23:30 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-28 15:37 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-28 23:47 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-28 17:13 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-10-29 04:31 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-29 05:42 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-10-30 17:22 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Patrick Scheible <kkt@zipcon.net> - 2011-10-30 23:43 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-10-31 05:31 -0500
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-31 12:42 +0200
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-10-31 13:11 -0500
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-10-31 17:18 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-10-29 07:32 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-10-28 23:41 +0200
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-28 22:42 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-10-29 10:09 +0200
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-29 10:11 +0100
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-10-29 09:42 +0000
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-10-29 16:17 +0200
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-10-29 07:39 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-10-29 19:29 +0200
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-10-29 20:25 +0200
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-10-30 08:14 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2011-10-31 18:30 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-01-24 18:21 -0800
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2011-11-03 11:31 -0400
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-03 13:45 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function Jonathan Leffler <jleffler@earthlink.net> - 2011-10-29 23:41 -0700
Re: about NULL as a parameter to a libc function James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-30 07:13 -0400
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