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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #31139

Re: MSP430-Stamp

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: MSP430-Stamp
Date 2014-06-01 14:57 -0400
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <lmft2i$ntf$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <lmedm9$fef$1@dont-email.me> <20140601111333.4f824781@42d75> <lmfkvl$s82$1@dont-email.me> <7xa99wbm4h.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <a40da62f-6c88-4481-888e-2ae7060f3da3@googlegroups.com>

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On 6/1/2014 2:45 PM, babruehl@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, June 1, 2014 1:00:46 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>> Of course unfortunately it would not promote the MSP430 or 4e4th....
>>
>>> I don't think 4e4th would be excluded.  Can't it be ported to the AVR?
>>
>>
>>
>> 4e4th based on Camelforth which runs on several processors but uses a
>>
>> fair amount of assembly code, at least in the MSP430 version.  Btw I
>>
>> didn't realize "promote the MSP430" was part of the goal here: the
>>
>> MSP430 seems like a convenient and low cost chip to use, but "promoting"
>>
>> it is TI's job, not ours.
>
> The TOPIC still is "MSP430-Stamp", was forked from "Go Forth and Prosper"
> But that doesn't mean anything, I guess.

The subject line is just that, some text.  I thought to goal here was to 
discuss ideas on how to promote a forth target board.  Lord knows the 
rest of the discussion has been all over the map.  I don't have a 
problem with someone suggesting that limiting the idea to the TI devices 
is not the best idea even if I don't agree.  I am quite happy with using 
the TI device.

Much of the problem with this discussion is that we all seem to have 
different goals in mind.  I am happy with limiting this discussion to an 
educational solution rather than a practical or commercial solution. 
That seems more in line with the original goals of 4e4th.

-- 

Rick

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Thread

MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 21:35 -0400
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 19:09 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 19:13 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 23:00 -0400
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 20:25 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 20:23 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 22:15 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 15:13 +0200
          Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 13:51 -0400
            Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 21:08 +0200
          Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 12:22 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 21:41 +0200
              Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 13:28 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 17:55 -0400
            Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 16:29 -0400
              Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 14:18 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 18:07 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 17:24 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-02 11:10 +0200
        Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-02 10:57 +0000
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-02 13:34 +0200
    Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 20:10 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 20:29 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 21:02 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-30 04:05 -0400
    Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 15:13 +0200
  Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 19:57 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 23:32 -0400
      Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 21:07 -0700
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 02:39 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-07-17 12:40 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 16:08 -0400
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-07-18 00:06 +0200
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-07-18 08:22 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-07-18 23:42 +0200
            Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 18:28 -0400
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-07-19 01:41 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 19:48 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-07-18 16:59 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-07-19 14:30 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 08:23 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-07-21 10:42 +0200
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 03:03 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 07:47 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 11:36 -0400
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-31 09:34 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 10:09 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-31 10:52 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 01:28 -0400
            Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 22:41 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 02:00 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 23:07 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 03:13 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 07:15 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 12:33 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 09:45 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 13:10 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 18:38 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp babruehl@gmail.com - 2014-06-01 11:40 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 11:13 +0200
              Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-01 09:50 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 12:47 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 04:05 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 12:39 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 10:00 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp babruehl@gmail.com - 2014-06-01 11:45 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 14:57 -0400
            Re: MSP430-Stamp "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 12:01 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 15:12 -0400
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 03:12 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 14:02 -0400
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 03:33 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 07:19 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 12:01 -0400
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 09:15 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 13:51 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 14:20 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 14:51 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 16:22 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-01 01:33 +0200
            Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-31 17:31 -1000
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 21:48 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-31 19:12 -1000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 22:25 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-06-01 09:45 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 04:16 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-01 08:51 -1000
            Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 21:03 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-01 21:17 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-04 22:46 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-05 13:27 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 08:39 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-05 16:10 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 11:10 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-05 19:52 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-05 23:25 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 15:02 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-06 10:56 +0000
                Correct Software and Specifications (was Re: MSP430-Stamp) Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-06-09 09:59 +0100
                Re: MSP430-Stamp mhx@iae.nl - 2014-06-05 14:30 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-06 10:59 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-05 15:57 +0200
                Formal specifications etc. (was: MSP430-Stamp) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-06-05 15:34 +0000
                Re: Formal specifications etc. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 11:48 -0700
                Re: Formal specifications etc. anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-06-05 19:46 +0000
                Re: Formal specifications etc. (was: MSP430-Stamp) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-05 23:02 +0200
                Re: Formal specifications etc. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 14:15 -0700
                Re: Formal specifications etc. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 17:33 -0400
                Re: Formal specifications etc. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 15:32 -0700
                Re: Formal specifications etc. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-06-06 04:00 -0500
                Re: Formal specifications etc. (was: MSP430-Stamp) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-06 11:05 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 11:01 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-06 01:09 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 22:01 -0400
        Re: MSP430-Stamp stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-31 16:47 +0000
    Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 12:11 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-06 12:54 +0200
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-02 11:39 +0200
    Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 12:15 -0400
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-03 10:26 +0200
        Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 12:18 -0400
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-02 10:04 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-03 11:51 +0200
        Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 13:33 -0400
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-06 13:02 +0200
            Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 17:31 -0400
              Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-06 16:30 -1000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 22:52 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-07 11:58 +0000
              Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-07 11:40 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 20:01 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-08 16:05 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 22:28 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 20:36 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-08 21:38 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 14:36 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 02:45 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 03:18 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 15:57 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-08 16:20 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-03 20:42 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-03 21:05 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-04 10:43 +0000
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-03 21:28 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 22:43 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-03 23:31 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 04:13 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-03 01:41 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-03 01:51 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 16:19 +0100
          Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-03 09:14 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 13:19 -0400
            Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-03 07:43 -1000
              Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-03 20:56 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-04 10:51 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp VisualForth <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 04:06 -0700
  Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 21:26 -0400
    Re: MSP430-Stamp "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 20:40 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:18 -0700
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 04:35 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-07 12:01 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 03:47 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 09:28 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 07:35 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-11 10:43 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 15:52 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2014-06-12 02:06 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-11 15:13 -1000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 02:16 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 12:56 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 16:46 -0400
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 03:49 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-09 09:47 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Rikard Lang <rikard.lang@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 23:16 +0200
      Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-10 07:48 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 07:23 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2014-06-11 18:00 -0500
            Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 02:14 -0400
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 02:13 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 13:04 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2014-06-12 18:06 -0500
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 19:29 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2014-06-13 18:48 -0500
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 07:26 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-11 10:45 -0700
  Re: MSP430-Stamp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-06-13 00:03 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-18 11:11 +0200
      Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-18 05:27 -0400
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-18 12:29 +0200
          Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 16:09 -0400

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