Re: Forth reinvention

From	"Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Forth reinvention
Date	2014-02-21 12:55 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<le7icr$88f$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	<b5ec955a-146f-41ea-a227-22e4224cab49@googlegroups.com> <o7KdncO2m9MJxJvOnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@supernews.com> <le5pq8$ie9$1@dont-email.me> <UpSdnZ24iMXIM5vOnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@supernews.com> <koGdnds8fYEKoZrOnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@supernews.com>

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on 21/02/2014 11:46:27, Andrew Haley wrote:
> Elizabeth D. Rather <erather@forth.com> wrote:
>> On 2/20/14 10:50 AM, Alex McDonald wrote:
>>> on 20/02/2014 19:37:55, "Elizabeth D. Rather" wrote:
>>>> On 2/19/14 11:19 PM, dambere@web.de wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> - Automatic parallelization:
>>>>> The trend goes to multi core architectures. A programming language that is relieving the 
programmer
>>> from the not inconsiderable task of paralleling programs will necessarily
>>> be attractive. >
>>>> Parallelization is an implementation strategy, not a language feature.
>>>
>>> Here I disagree, and very strongly indeed. Concurrent and parallel
>>> progamming demand languages that allow more than just task or process
>>> management. There are many forms; SIMD, parallel execution on tightly
>>> coupled, loosely coupled and decoupled systems, shared distributed
>>> memory, concurrent actor models, future and promise models -- heck, a
>>> huge slew of parallel & concurrent stuff where the language is the
>>> difference between being able to do something and not being able to
>>> express yourself at all. And no, it's not just libraries or
>>> implementation strategy.
>>
>> Do you have an example?
>>
>> There seem to be lots of multi-core architectures out there nowadays,
>> but I haven't heard of a "new language" in which everything has to be
>> re-written in order to run on them. If programs written in C, C++, Java,
>> or whatever are now suddenly running parallel, surely that's because the
>> underlying components have been structured to enable the parallel
>> architecture.
> 
> Here's a very simple example in Java, which has had a recent overhaul
> to make it easier to write parallel programs.
> 
> This is old-style Java method that calculates the sum from
> lo <= n < hi of some function f(n):
> 
> static double sum(int lo, int hi, IntToDoubleFunction f) {
> double res = 0;
> for (int i = lo; i < hi; i++)
> res += f.apply(i);
> return res;
> }
> 
> The exact details of the syntax don't matter, but it's equivalent to
> the Forth
> 
>: sum ( xt lo hi -- f)
> 0.0e  swap do  i s>f dup execute f+  loop drop ;
> 
> New-style Java looks like this:
> 
> static double sum(int lo, int hi, IntToDoubleFunction f) {
> return IntStream.range(lo, hi).mapToDouble(f).sum();
> }
> 
> Here, we create a stream of integers from lo to hi, apply the function
> f to every element, and sum the results. It's the same calculation,
> but it's inherently parallel: there is no implied ordering from lo to
> hi, so this computation can be spread over many processors. Of course

Or fewer & faster SIMD instructions.

> a heoric optimizing compiler could determine that the first program
> could be converted into parallel execution, but that's hard to do in
> general. I'm sure there could be a nice Forth equivalent of the second
> form, but it would take some designing.
> 
> Andrew.

Thread

Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-20 01:19 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-20 05:07 -0500
    Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-20 14:56 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-20 16:16 -0500
        Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-20 23:25 +0000
          Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-20 20:42 -0500
            Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-21 12:41 +0000
  Re: Forth reinvention Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-02-20 11:18 +0100
    Re: Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-20 02:36 -0800
      Re: Forth reinvention Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-02-20 17:35 +0100
        Re: Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-20 11:34 -0800
          Re: Forth reinvention "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-20 09:53 -1000
          Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-20 12:23 -0800
            Re: Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-20 14:00 -0800
              Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-20 14:23 -0800
                Re: Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-22 02:21 -0800
                Re: Forth reinvention AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-02-22 12:02 +0100
              Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-21 04:38 -0600
          Re: Forth reinvention Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-20 12:35 -0800
            Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-20 13:38 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-02-20 03:59 -0800
    Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-20 15:11 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-02-20 07:41 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> - 2014-02-20 06:38 -0600
    Re: Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-20 12:03 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-02-20 07:08 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-20 09:37 -1000
    Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-20 20:50 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-20 15:39 -1000
        Re: Forth reinvention albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-02-21 10:50 +0000
        Re: Forth reinvention Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-21 11:10 +0000
          Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-21 13:50 +0000
        Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-21 05:46 -0600
          Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-21 12:55 +0000
          Re: Forth reinvention anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-02-21 15:11 +0000
            Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-22 09:23 -0600
        Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-21 12:38 +0000
        Re: Forth reinvention anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-02-22 13:29 +0000
          Re: Forth reinvention "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-22 07:52 -1000
            Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-22 19:06 +0000
            Re: Forth reinvention anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-02-23 13:40 +0000
    Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-20 20:40 -0500
      Re: Forth reinvention "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-20 18:43 -1000
        Re: Forth reinvention Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-02-21 13:16 +0100
      Re: Forth reinvention stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-02-21 10:49 +0000
    Re: Forth reinvention anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-02-21 14:50 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-21 16:28 +0000
        Re: Forth reinvention anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-02-22 12:54 +0000
          Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-22 10:27 -0500
          Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-22 17:49 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-02-21 20:51 +0100
        Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-22 09:39 -0600
          Re: Forth reinvention Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-02-23 02:40 +0100
            Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-22 19:24 -0800
              Re: Forth reinvention Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-02-23 22:48 +0100
            Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-23 04:39 -0600
              Re: Forth reinvention Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-02-23 22:46 +0100
                Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-23 14:26 -0800
                Re: Forth reinvention Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-02-24 02:44 +0100
                Re: Forth reinvention Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-03-03 12:43 -0500
                Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-03 10:06 -0800
                Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-24 03:59 -0600
  Re: Forth reinvention mike73900@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 14:04 -0800
    Re: Forth reinvention mhx@iae.nl - 2014-03-05 06:59 -0800
      Re: Forth reinvention Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-03-05 16:33 +0100
      Re: Forth reinvention Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:08 -0800
        Re: Forth reinvention mhx@iae.nl - 2014-03-05 10:47 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-03-07 07:30 +0100
    Re: Forth reinvention Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2014-03-07 07:55 +0100
    Re: Forth reinvention albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-07 09:29 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-03-07 12:04 +0100
      Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-07 17:03 -0500
        Re: Forth reinvention Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-03-08 05:31 -0800

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