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Re: Forth reinvention

From anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Forth reinvention
Date 2014-02-23 13:40 +0000
Organization Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID <2014Feb23.144040@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <o7KdncO2m9MJxJvOnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@supernews.com> <le5pq8$ie9$1@dont-email.me> <UpSdnZ24iMXIM5vOnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@supernews.com> <2014Feb22.142959@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <r5-dnS3ImYlKfpXOnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@supernews.com>

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"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>On 2/22/14 3:29 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>>> There seem to be lots of multi-core architectures out there nowadays,
>>> but I haven't heard of a "new language" in which everything has to be
>>> re-written in order to run on them.
>>
>> I have heard of many such languages.
>>
>>> If programs written in C, C++, Java,
>>> or whatever are now suddenly running parallel,
>>
>> They are not.  If they have been written multi-threaded, and the
>> threads don't wait too much on each other, they run in parallel,
>> otherwise they just run sequentially.
>
>Where is the "decision" to run them parallel made? At the language 
>level, or the OS level?

The programmer decides whether and how the application is divided into
threads and where these threads wait on each other; he then codes this
into the program with more or less language support.  Then the
run-time environment decides whether it can actually make use of the
parallelism exposed by the program, and may run the different threads
on different cores.  In Java the multi-threading support is present in
the language, while in C it is present through APIs like POSIX threads
that are usually seen as part of the OS.  But in any case, a
sequential program does not suddenly run in parallel (apart from maybe
a few easy cases).

>The style of multitasking in Forth has very 
>little interdependence between threads.

The traditional style of multi-tasking in Forth is cooperative
multitasking.  There each task can rely on the code pieces between two
PAUSEs (and other task-switching words like I/O words) being processed
without another task intervening.  It's hard or impossible for the
compiler and run-time to know whether such a piece of code is
independent from another such piece of code, so these tasks cannot be
processed in parallel (at least I don't see a practical way).  Even if
there is little interdependence, the compiler and run-time system have
no way of knowing that.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2013: http://www.euroforth.org/ef13/

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Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-20 01:19 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-20 05:07 -0500
    Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-20 14:56 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-20 16:16 -0500
        Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-20 23:25 +0000
          Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-20 20:42 -0500
            Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-21 12:41 +0000
  Re: Forth reinvention Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-02-20 11:18 +0100
    Re: Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-20 02:36 -0800
      Re: Forth reinvention Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-02-20 17:35 +0100
        Re: Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-20 11:34 -0800
          Re: Forth reinvention "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-20 09:53 -1000
          Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-20 12:23 -0800
            Re: Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-20 14:00 -0800
              Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-20 14:23 -0800
                Re: Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-22 02:21 -0800
                Re: Forth reinvention AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-02-22 12:02 +0100
              Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-21 04:38 -0600
          Re: Forth reinvention Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-20 12:35 -0800
            Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-20 13:38 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-02-20 03:59 -0800
    Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-20 15:11 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-02-20 07:41 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> - 2014-02-20 06:38 -0600
    Re: Forth reinvention dambere@web.de - 2014-02-20 12:03 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-02-20 07:08 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-20 09:37 -1000
    Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-20 20:50 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-20 15:39 -1000
        Re: Forth reinvention albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-02-21 10:50 +0000
        Re: Forth reinvention Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-21 11:10 +0000
          Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-21 13:50 +0000
        Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-21 05:46 -0600
          Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-21 12:55 +0000
          Re: Forth reinvention anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-02-21 15:11 +0000
            Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-22 09:23 -0600
        Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-21 12:38 +0000
        Re: Forth reinvention anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-02-22 13:29 +0000
          Re: Forth reinvention "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-22 07:52 -1000
            Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-22 19:06 +0000
            Re: Forth reinvention anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-02-23 13:40 +0000
    Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-20 20:40 -0500
      Re: Forth reinvention "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-20 18:43 -1000
        Re: Forth reinvention Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-02-21 13:16 +0100
      Re: Forth reinvention stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-02-21 10:49 +0000
    Re: Forth reinvention anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-02-21 14:50 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-21 16:28 +0000
        Re: Forth reinvention anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-02-22 12:54 +0000
          Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-22 10:27 -0500
          Re: Forth reinvention "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-02-22 17:49 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-02-21 20:51 +0100
        Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-22 09:39 -0600
          Re: Forth reinvention Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-02-23 02:40 +0100
            Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-22 19:24 -0800
              Re: Forth reinvention Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-02-23 22:48 +0100
            Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-23 04:39 -0600
              Re: Forth reinvention Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-02-23 22:46 +0100
                Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-23 14:26 -0800
                Re: Forth reinvention Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-02-24 02:44 +0100
                Re: Forth reinvention Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-03-03 12:43 -0500
                Re: Forth reinvention Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-03 10:06 -0800
                Re: Forth reinvention Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-24 03:59 -0600
  Re: Forth reinvention mike73900@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 14:04 -0800
    Re: Forth reinvention mhx@iae.nl - 2014-03-05 06:59 -0800
      Re: Forth reinvention Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-03-05 16:33 +0100
      Re: Forth reinvention Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:08 -0800
        Re: Forth reinvention mhx@iae.nl - 2014-03-05 10:47 -0800
  Re: Forth reinvention AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-03-07 07:30 +0100
    Re: Forth reinvention Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2014-03-07 07:55 +0100
    Re: Forth reinvention albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-07 09:29 +0000
      Re: Forth reinvention AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-03-07 12:04 +0100
      Re: Forth reinvention "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-07 17:03 -0500
        Re: Forth reinvention Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-03-08 05:31 -0800

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