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Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists.

From whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists.
Date 2023-08-14 00:20 -0500
Message-ID <kjtrt9FucipU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <ub8sds$1ga7a$1@dont-email.me> <gMidndc9LNeeYEr5nZ2dnZfqlJxj4p2d@giganews.com> <ubbg36$1v9k3$1@dont-email.me> <kjt9m6FrhopU2@mid.individual.net> <d35a00d1-ae50-4485-b1dc-7e18c528f257n@googlegroups.com>

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On 8/13/2023 8:50 PM, Paul Alsing wrote:
> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 5:09:47 PM UTC-7, whodat wrote:
> 
>>> I'm just trying to understand a difficult part of this type of physics.
>> Given the impossibility of seeing the inside of a black hole, the
>> question becomes, is there actually any matter in there any longer.
> 
> The proposed black hole at the center of the Milky Way has a calculated mass of about 4 million solar masses.
> Doesn't that strongly suggest that this mass is actual matter? Or, can the proposed *dark matter* or *dark energy*
> theory be invoked?

Is "dark matter" actually "matter" of the sort we've become accustomed
to considering when the term is used? Or could it be something else
altogether. That's another source of mass, at least mathematically
described, that we cannot see. So we know something is up. We call it
"dark matter" because we don't know what it is other than in terms
of its effects.

> Yes, this is where the rubber meets the road in cosmology, and it is quite mysterious... but I'll wait for the professionals to
> chime in someday rather than make something up that sounds good :>)

Legitimate questions are always good. The problem with crank "questions" 
is that they invariably are simply pretextual.
> I *know* what I don't know, which I cannot say is the case very often here!

Exactly the same here!

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Thread

Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 11:42 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-11 18:48 +0000
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 13:04 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 14:20 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 12:00 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 12:19 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 12:26 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-11 21:32 +0200
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 13:06 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-11 16:46 -0500
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-12 12:07 +0200
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-12 09:52 +0200
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 13:28 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 13:39 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 14:31 -0700
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 14:39 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 14:44 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 15:24 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 16:10 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 16:35 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-11 22:20 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 20:10 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 12:31 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 20:21 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 21:24 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 21:41 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 15:34 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 22:05 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 22:20 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-16 20:43 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 12:29 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 12:45 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-16 22:34 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 13:45 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 17:55 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-11 17:28 -0500
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-13 13:03 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:52 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 20:57 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 21:07 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 21:31 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-14 07:16 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-14 10:30 +0200
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 15:33 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-12 12:53 +0200
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 04:12 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-12 07:53 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-12 08:07 -0700
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:04 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 10:57 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 10:27 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-13 10:34 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 03:49 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-08-13 15:17 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-13 14:53 +0000
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 17:21 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 08:35 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 16:08 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 16:43 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 16:53 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 16:55 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 17:45 -0700
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:47 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 15:51 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-14 16:00 -0700
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 23:50 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-15 01:02 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-15 17:57 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-15 15:34 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-15 22:20 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 10:25 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2023-08-12 10:54 +0300
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 06:46 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-12 22:44 +1000
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 09:05 -0500
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 07:23 -0700
      Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 08:44 -0700
        Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 09:39 -0700
          Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 10:02 -0700
          Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
          Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 17:14 -0400
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 15:21 -0500
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:33 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:21 -0500
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Malvin Bastian <ntit@iissiniv.ba> - 2023-08-12 21:25 +0000
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:01 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:34 -0500
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Americo Babanov <oboe@airmocov.vo> - 2023-08-12 20:39 +0000
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 17:09 -0400
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Justine Virvitsiotti <stvt@ijistiri.ss> - 2023-08-12 21:22 +0000
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:43 -0500
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:49 -0500
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-13 16:57 -0400
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Leopoldo Amet-Han <aleh@--ao---t.oe> - 2023-08-13 21:43 +0000
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-13 17:43 -0500
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-13 19:09 -0500
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 18:17 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 18:50 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 22:00 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-14 00:20 -0500
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 22:31 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-14 11:05 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-14 11:42 -0500
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-14 10:34 -0700
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 22:02 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 09:43 -0500
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-14 10:52 -0400
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 08:26 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 08:31 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-08-13 04:19 +0200
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 22:43 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:16 -0700
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 14:25 -0500
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maria Vanag <aavi@raaiavnr.ga> - 2023-08-12 19:49 +0000
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:28 -0500
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:48 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 15:24 -0500
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:33 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:46 -0500
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:02 -0700
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:23 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:50 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 20:13 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 21:20 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 21:21 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:48 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 20:55 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:03 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:09 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:10 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:36 -0500
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:38 -0700
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:42 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:39 -0500
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:20 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:33 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 10:20 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:17 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:56 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:02 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:37 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:51 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 10:24 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 11:49 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 20:50 +0200
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 12:03 -0700
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-13 15:17 -0400
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 12:56 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-14 19:01 -0400
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 10:46 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-15 22:22 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 20:18 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-16 10:37 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 18:23 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 12:57 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-16 21:16 -0500
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-13 18:51 -0500
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 15:02 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 10:51 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 15:19 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Reign Derkach <rgae@eirrkrag.re> - 2023-08-16 10:57 +0000
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 15:27 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-16 22:11 +0200

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