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Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists.

From whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists.
Date 2023-08-13 19:09 -0500
Message-ID <kjt9m6FrhopU2@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References (2 earlier) <5db8fba9-2c2e-4a4d-b6e3-8d37f5191c99n@googlegroups.com> <pv2dnWR6Jf0ydEr5nZ2dnZfqlJxj4p2d@giganews.com> <ub8sds$1ga7a$1@dont-email.me> <gMidndc9LNeeYEr5nZ2dnZfqlJxj4p2d@giganews.com> <ubbg36$1v9k3$1@dont-email.me>

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On 8/13/2023 3:57 PM, Volney wrote:
> On 8/12/2023 5:43 PM, Tom Roberts wrote:
>> On 8/12/23 4:09 PM, Volney wrote:
>>> What is the best way to "explain" how gravitational "force" (and 
>>> electric charge) can "escape" a black hole if the speed of light and 
>>> gravity are both c?
>>
>> Do not mention "escape", as that simply does not apply in GR.
>>
>> In GR, gravity is merely one aspect of spacetime curvature, so you are
>> really asking: how does spacetime curvature outside a black hole reflect
>> the presence of the black hole? The answer is that spacetime curvature
>> anywhere at a given time depends on the curvature there an infinitesimal
>> time previous, plus effects from matter. For just a black hole, there is
>> no matter to consider. For a black hole formed by an object's collapse,
>> one can trace the curvature back in time to just before the black hole
>> formed, and the collapsing matter generates the curvature, without any
>> question of crossing a horizon. The curvature outside the newly-formed
>> horizon propagates essentially unchanged forward in time to the time in
>> question. For a primordial black hole, the spacetime curvature can be
>> traced back infinitely far.
>>
>> So gravity does not "escape from a black hole" because it is already
>> present outside the horizon. Similarly for the effects of electric 
>> charge.
> 
> I'm still confused. The black hole exhibits effects because there was a 
> bunch of infalling matter sometime in the past. How does this differ 
> from the situation where there's gravitating matter that suddenly gets 
> yanked away? The mass was there in the past but is no longer there. Yes 
> I know the mass still exists elsewhere still affecting other matter. I'm 
> just interested in the difference between matter forming a black hole 
> still affecting other mass because it was ordinary matter in the past, 
> and ordinary matter existing until it suddenly took off and is now 
> elsewhere but was in the original location in the past.
> 
> I guess there's a form of supernova where essentially ALL of the star's 
> mass gets blasted into space leaving essentially nothing at the original 
> star's location. Consider a planet orbiting that star. Once the shell of 
> mass passes the orbital radius of the planet, the planet is inside the 
> shell, and (if symmetrical) the mass of the star no longer has an effect 
> on the planet. But the star was there in the past. How is this different 
> from the star collapsing into a black hole. The star and its mass is 
> gone, but it was there in the past. But it acts as if the mass of the 
> star was still there as ordinary matter.
> 
> I'm just trying to understand a difficult part of this type of physics.

Given the impossibility of seeing the inside of a black hole, the
question becomes, is there actually any matter in there any longer. A
lot of boundaries are crossed in the creation of a black hole and I've
read many times that the ordinary "rules" no longer apply there. IMO
we cannot guess at what's going on inside a black hole based on what
the rules are outside.

You've raised an interesting question though, does "is" include what
"was" inside and if it does is that "forever" by our reckoning outside?
Can the immense gravity inside a black hole literally stop time?

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Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 11:42 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-11 18:48 +0000
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 13:04 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 14:20 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 12:00 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 12:19 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 12:26 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-11 21:32 +0200
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 13:06 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-11 16:46 -0500
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-12 12:07 +0200
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-12 09:52 +0200
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 13:28 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 13:39 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 14:31 -0700
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 14:39 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 14:44 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 15:24 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 16:10 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 16:35 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-11 22:20 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 20:10 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 12:31 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 20:21 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 21:24 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 21:41 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 15:34 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 22:05 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 22:20 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-16 20:43 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 12:29 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 12:45 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-16 22:34 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 13:45 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 17:55 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-11 17:28 -0500
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-13 13:03 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:52 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 20:57 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 21:07 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 21:31 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-14 07:16 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-14 10:30 +0200
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 15:33 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-12 12:53 +0200
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 04:12 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-12 07:53 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-12 08:07 -0700
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:04 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 10:57 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 10:27 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-13 10:34 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 03:49 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-08-13 15:17 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-13 14:53 +0000
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 17:21 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 08:35 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 16:08 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 16:43 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 16:53 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 16:55 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 17:45 -0700
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:47 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 15:51 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-14 16:00 -0700
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 23:50 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-15 01:02 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-15 17:57 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-15 15:34 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-15 22:20 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 10:25 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2023-08-12 10:54 +0300
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 06:46 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-12 22:44 +1000
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 09:05 -0500
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 07:23 -0700
      Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 08:44 -0700
        Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 09:39 -0700
          Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 10:02 -0700
          Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
          Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 17:14 -0400
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 15:21 -0500
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:33 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:21 -0500
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Malvin Bastian <ntit@iissiniv.ba> - 2023-08-12 21:25 +0000
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:01 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:34 -0500
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Americo Babanov <oboe@airmocov.vo> - 2023-08-12 20:39 +0000
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 17:09 -0400
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Justine Virvitsiotti <stvt@ijistiri.ss> - 2023-08-12 21:22 +0000
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:43 -0500
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:49 -0500
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-13 16:57 -0400
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Leopoldo Amet-Han <aleh@--ao---t.oe> - 2023-08-13 21:43 +0000
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-13 17:43 -0500
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-13 19:09 -0500
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 18:17 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 18:50 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 22:00 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-14 00:20 -0500
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 22:31 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-14 11:05 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-14 11:42 -0500
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-14 10:34 -0700
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 22:02 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 09:43 -0500
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-14 10:52 -0400
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 08:26 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 08:31 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-08-13 04:19 +0200
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 22:43 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:16 -0700
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 14:25 -0500
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maria Vanag <aavi@raaiavnr.ga> - 2023-08-12 19:49 +0000
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:28 -0500
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:48 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 15:24 -0500
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:33 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:46 -0500
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:02 -0700
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:23 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:50 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 20:13 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 21:20 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 21:21 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:48 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 20:55 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:03 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:09 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:10 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:36 -0500
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:38 -0700
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:42 -0700
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:39 -0500
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:20 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:33 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 10:20 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:17 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:56 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:02 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:37 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:51 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 10:24 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 11:49 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 20:50 +0200
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 12:03 -0700
        Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-13 15:17 -0400
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 12:56 -0700
            Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-14 19:01 -0400
              Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 10:46 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-15 22:22 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 20:18 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-16 10:37 -0400
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 18:23 +0200
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 12:57 -0700
                Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-16 21:16 -0500
          Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-13 18:51 -0500
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 15:02 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 10:51 -0700
      Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 15:19 -0700
    Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Reign Derkach <rgae@eirrkrag.re> - 2023-08-16 10:57 +0000
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 15:27 -0700
  Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-16 22:11 +0200

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