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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #617418
| From | whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics.relativity |
| Subject | Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. |
| Date | 2023-08-11 17:28 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <kjnqvuF9ejU2@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (4 earlier) <066c78d5-fe16-403d-811d-4ec1719cb5d2n@googlegroups.com> <2dc8be37-404c-4a45-9ff2-9768fbc87d0dn@googlegroups.com> <aa874e79-0ee7-4a4a-b3ca-6ead3608931dn@googlegroups.com> <828e283e-0f4d-4ba9-b554-93c43ea7a2fcn@googlegroups.com> <a45ffb83-b408-46b3-860f-f4777dcc7ca0n@googlegroups.com> |
On 8/11/2023 4:44 PM, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote: <...> > Since I don't know much about it, can you explain why they > can't detect the gravity from other planets in our own solar system? What makes you think we cannot detect gravity from other planets within our solar system? Here, I'll save you some time and trouble. We detect gravity from the entire universe. With so many inputs we cannot isolate any particular planet's gravity because they all merge in what is described in vector theory. It has been clear to me for some time that this is a topic with which you have absolutely no acquaintance but you expound relentlessly anyway. The very premise of your question is wrong. Learn something about physics before attempting to appear expert in the topic. Better yet, find a different hobby, one in which you can achieve instant success. Even the average crank in this newsgroup is decades ahead of you. Here's your problem in a nutshell. When you search to come up with some idea to discuss, you do not know enough about physics to recognize whether your "source" on the internet is actually knowledgeable or whether they're simply making it up as they go along. So you "go in the ditch" with them. Generally I don't much care for biblical quotes but in this case the gospel of Matthew 15:14 provides a highly appropriate text, much more than anything else. Read and heed! "The saying appears in the King James Version of the Bible (1611), Gospel of Matthew, 15:14: Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blind_leading_the_blind#:~:text=The%20saying%20appears%20in%20the,shall%20fall%20into%20the%20ditch.>
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Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 11:42 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-11 18:48 +0000
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 13:04 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 14:20 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 12:00 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 12:19 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 12:26 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-11 21:32 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 13:06 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-11 16:46 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-12 12:07 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-12 09:52 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 13:28 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 13:39 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 14:31 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 14:39 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 14:44 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 15:24 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 16:10 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 16:35 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-11 22:20 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 20:10 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 12:31 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 20:21 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 21:24 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 21:41 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 15:34 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 22:05 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 22:20 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-16 20:43 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 12:29 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 12:45 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-16 22:34 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 13:45 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 17:55 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-11 17:28 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-13 13:03 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:52 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 20:57 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 21:07 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 21:31 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-14 07:16 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-14 10:30 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 15:33 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-12 12:53 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 04:12 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-12 07:53 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-12 08:07 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:04 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 10:57 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 10:27 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-13 10:34 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 03:49 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-08-13 15:17 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-13 14:53 +0000
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 17:21 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 08:35 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 16:08 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 16:43 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 16:53 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-11 16:55 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 17:45 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:47 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 15:51 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-14 16:00 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 23:50 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-15 01:02 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-15 17:57 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-15 15:34 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-15 22:20 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-16 10:25 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2023-08-12 10:54 +0300
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 06:46 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-12 22:44 +1000
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 09:05 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 07:23 -0700
Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 08:44 -0700
Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 09:39 -0700
Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 10:02 -0700
Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
Re: Cretin crank Richard Hertz perseveres Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 17:14 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 15:21 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:33 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:21 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Malvin Bastian <ntit@iissiniv.ba> - 2023-08-12 21:25 +0000
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:01 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:34 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Americo Babanov <oboe@airmocov.vo> - 2023-08-12 20:39 +0000
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-12 17:09 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Justine Virvitsiotti <stvt@ijistiri.ss> - 2023-08-12 21:22 +0000
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:43 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:49 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-13 16:57 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Leopoldo Amet-Han <aleh@--ao---t.oe> - 2023-08-13 21:43 +0000
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-13 17:43 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-13 19:09 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 18:17 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 18:50 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 22:00 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-14 00:20 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 22:31 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-14 11:05 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-14 11:42 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-14 10:34 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 22:02 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 09:43 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-14 10:52 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 08:26 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 08:31 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-08-13 04:19 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 22:43 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:16 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 14:25 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maria Vanag <aavi@raaiavnr.ga> - 2023-08-12 19:49 +0000
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:28 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:48 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 15:24 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:33 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-08-12 16:46 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:02 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:23 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:50 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 20:13 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 21:20 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 21:21 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:48 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 20:55 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:03 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:09 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 15:10 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:36 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:38 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:42 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-12 17:39 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:20 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:33 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 10:20 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 11:12 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 18:17 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:56 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 13:02 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-13 20:37 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 12:51 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 10:24 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 11:49 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 20:50 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 12:03 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-13 15:17 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 12:56 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-14 19:01 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 10:46 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-15 22:22 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 20:18 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-16 10:37 -0400
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 18:23 +0200
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-16 12:57 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-16 21:16 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-13 18:51 -0500
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 15:02 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.c.sirius@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 10:51 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-08-15 15:19 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. Reign Derkach <rgae@eirrkrag.re> - 2023-08-16 10:57 +0000
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 15:27 -0700
Re: Cordial Invitation to all Relativists. nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-16 22:11 +0200
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