Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #616656

Re: There is no material length contraction

From	Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: There is no material length contraction
Date	2023-08-03 19:10 +1000
Message-ID	<kj198pFb2gpU2@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <f528abb1-f28f-4359-9cd8-015db6803417n@googlegroups.com> <kir7s9FbunmU1@mid.individual.net> <71185454-ac1d-4278-b8a7-5f797c963391n@googlegroups.com> <kj0ub3F95vvU2@mid.individual.net> <97545b69-8098-41ef-8b90-1f045ccbc547n@googlegroups.com>

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On 03-Aug-23 6:21 pm, patdolan wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:04:23 PM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 01-Aug-23 3:12 pm, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 1 August 2023 at 04:10:22 UTC+2, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> On 01-Aug-23 11:38 am, Ken Seto wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 8:41:31 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>> On 01-Aug-23 9:42 am, Ken Seto wrote:
>>>>>>> Einstein invented length contraction to make his Postulate P2 constant light speed in all frames viable.
>>>>>>> Here's how:
>>>>>>> 1. The material length of a meter stick remain constant in all frames.
>>>>>>> 2. Einstein invented length contraction without specifyin what is
>>>>>>> contracting.
>>>>>>> This allowed him to claim that Length contraction along with time dilation
>>>>>>> to give him constant light speed in all frames.
>>>>>>> The real reason why the speed of light is not constant in all frames is as follows:
>>>>>>> 1. The material length of a meter stick remains constant in all frames.
>>>>>>> 2. The light-path-length (LPL)...the length that light must travel to cover the material length of a meter stick ....
>>>>>>> 3. The LPL of the observer's meter stick is 1meter ...the same as its material
>>>>>>> length..
>>>>>>> 4. The LPL of a meter moving wrt the observer is predicted to be 1/gamma or gamma.
>>>>>>> 5. Einstein assumed that the LPL of the moving meter stick only 1/gamma. and thus all meter stick moving wrt the observer will have LPL 1/gamma. This is wrong. The LPL of a moving meter can be gamma. This means that SR is only half of the story.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed, there is no material length contraction. Einstein never said
>>>>>> there was.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what did Einstein said what is contracting? The LPL as I said above?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do
>>>> measurements. That's it.
>>>
>>> Is it, lady?
>>> So, if anyone asked your insdane guru: "an observer
>>> moving with c/2 wrt solar system is going to measure
>>> a day. What result do you expect in the name of your
>>> insane physics?"
>>> The answer would be...?
>>
>> Such questions are ill-framed. The observer is moving, so their distance
>> away from the Earth will vary over the course of day, and the time light
>> takes to travel from the Earth to the observer will also vary.
>>
>> So what is an Earth day from the perspective of the observer? Is it the
>> time it takes for the observer to see the Earth rotate once through a
>> powerful telescope?
>>
>> Perhaps you want it to be the time it takes to rotate in the observer's
>> coordinate system, but that has no physical reality, because it's not
>> something that can be measured, even in principle. It represents just
>> part of the mathematical model that the observer can use to calculate
>> the expected length of the day as seen by the observer though their
>> telescope.
>>
>> Sylvia.
> Sylvia,
> 
> Where your model of proper & coordinate time betrays itself as useless is when one tries to simultaneously model how massive bodies are attracted to one another when in equilibrium wrt that attraction.  Einstein had to punt on that entire aspect of his theory--it forced him to compartmentalize relativity into two flavors: special and general.  And for a long time, right up until a few months ago, people believed that general relativity did in fact rescue special relativity from falsification by that mutual attraction.  But then the Big Ben Paradox came along and upset everything.  Now it is back to the drawing board for SR if it is to be salvaged for a new generation of students and their textbooks.  As of right now, SR is as wrecked as the supposed "age of the Universe" calculations.

You seem to think that the Big Ben paradox is a problem. I don't.

Sylvia.

Thread

There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 16:42 -0700
  Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-01 10:41 +1000
    Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-31 18:15 -0700
    Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 18:38 -0700
      Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-01 12:10 +1000
        Re: There is no material length contraction Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 21:47 -0700
          Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-31 22:04 -0700
            Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-03 15:52 +1000
              Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-03 09:50 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 02:55 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-03 09:57 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 03:09 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 07:01 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 10:30 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-03 14:01 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 12:42 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Rob Bibler <rreb@bieillii.ir> - 2023-08-03 20:02 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 14:29 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-03 22:37 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 20:28 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 04:11 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 13:34 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 10:41 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 23:31 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 21:21 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-05 00:50 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-05 10:57 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-05 14:38 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 10:11 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-06 21:00 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-07 11:34 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Rondell Verre <eror@vedllele.ee> - 2023-08-05 20:10 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 10:52 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 12:58 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-05 14:43 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-05 21:36 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 14:22 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 15:00 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 17:53 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-07 11:39 -0400
                Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-07 15:53 +0000
                Re: Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-07 19:24 +0200
                Re: Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-07 18:32 +0000
                Re: Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-07 22:43 +0200
                Re: Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-07 12:29 -0500
                Re: Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-07 16:45 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-07 11:01 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-07 16:48 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Nat Vaikule <nukv@vektnaaa.nv> - 2023-08-07 21:25 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-07 15:34 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Jarrell Martirosov <ajrr@riilromm.aa> - 2023-08-08 10:03 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-07 18:01 -0500
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-10 18:53 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-10 19:07 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-10 13:20 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-10 18:58 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ronaldo Amerhanov <hera@aeladhrd.ma> - 2023-08-12 20:57 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 06:07 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 09:06 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-14 16:21 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 09:39 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ozzie Jakushov <ezhu@ijjhhouv.az> - 2023-08-04 21:35 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 15:58 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Beraldo Hapy <lhap@aaloyohe.pl> - 2023-08-05 03:00 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-08 05:30 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Dalton Dubman <nlat@tualtadd.db> - 2023-08-08 14:02 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-08 10:45 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-09 06:48 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-09 06:58 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-09 12:31 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-10 08:38 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-10 11:56 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Kaosayn Shakhbazyan <nazs@aoonaaoo.ah> - 2023-08-10 16:30 +0000
        Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 22:12 -0700
          Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-03 16:04 +1000
            Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 00:19 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-03 19:06 +1000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 02:53 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-04 08:03 +1000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 20:23 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-04 13:22 +0000
            Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-03 01:21 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-03 19:10 +1000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-03 09:56 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-03 08:57 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-03 16:13 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-03 09:24 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 20:22 +0200
                Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-03 17:28 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-03 10:57 -0700
        Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 04:25 -0700
          Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-01 09:08 -0400
            Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 06:14 -0700
            Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 07:40 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 10:30 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Shkelqim Jadrennikov <meem@qnoeeooq.ds> - 2023-08-01 20:49 +0000
              Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-01 22:57 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 06:43 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-03 14:11 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 11:38 -0700
            Re: There is no material length contraction Darling Vavravsky <rlrg@kakkdvyv.lv> - 2023-08-01 20:33 +0000
              Re: There is no material length contraction Chaney Charnolusky <ycck@sarhhnkn.ca> - 2023-08-01 20:59 +0000
          Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-02 08:33 +1000
            Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-01 23:09 +0000
              Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-02 09:15 +1000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-02 10:17 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-02 03:23 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-02 11:47 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-02 05:12 -0700
            Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 16:40 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 16:51 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-02 10:57 +1000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 18:26 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-01 23:04 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 21:58 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 21:59 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-01 23:00 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 11:53 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-03 15:01 -0400
                Re: There is no material length contraction Moody Vallah <mahv@ohoymldo.lv> - 2023-08-03 19:41 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 13:00 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction James Dzhunkovsky <uskv@mdjjsnue.ze> - 2023-08-03 19:23 +0000
    Re: There is no material length contraction nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-01 11:07 +0200
  Re: There is no material length contraction JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 17:46 -0700
    Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 18:40 -0700
    Re: There is no material length contraction Lamont Bakhmutov <mktk@tomhmtmm.ml> - 2023-08-01 21:10 +0000
      Re: There is no material length contraction Thad Mokrinsky <aonk@yoitaito.rm> - 2023-08-01 21:33 +0000

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