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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #616449 > unrolled thread

There is no material length contraction

Started byKen Seto <setoken47@gmail.com>
First post2023-07-31 16:42 -0700
Last post2023-08-01 21:33 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 127 — 28 participants

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Contents

  There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 16:42 -0700
    Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-01 10:41 +1000
      Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-31 18:15 -0700
      Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 18:38 -0700
        Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-01 12:10 +1000
          Re: There is no material length contraction Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 21:47 -0700
            Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-31 22:04 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-03 15:52 +1000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-03 09:50 +0000
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 02:55 -0700
                    Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-03 09:57 +0000
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 03:09 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 07:01 -0700
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 10:30 -0700
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-03 14:01 -0400
                    Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 12:42 -0700
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Rob Bibler <rreb@bieillii.ir> - 2023-08-03 20:02 +0000
                        Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 14:29 -0700
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-03 22:37 -0400
                        Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 20:28 -0700
                        Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 04:11 -0700
                          Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 13:34 -0400
                            Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 10:41 -0700
                              Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 23:31 -0400
                                Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 21:21 -0700
                                  Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-05 00:50 -0400
                                    Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-05 10:57 -0700
                                      Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-05 14:38 -0400
                                        Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 10:11 -0700
                                          Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-06 21:00 +0000
                                          Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-07 11:34 -0400
                                      Re: There is no material length contraction Rondell Verre <eror@vedllele.ee> - 2023-08-05 20:10 +0000
                            Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 10:52 -0700
                            Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 12:58 -0700
                              Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-05 14:43 -0400
                                Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-05 21:36 -0700
                                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 14:22 -0700
                                  Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 15:00 -0700
                                  Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 17:53 -0700
                                  Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-07 11:39 -0400
                                    Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-07 15:53 +0000
                                      Re: Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-07 19:24 +0200
                                        Re: Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-07 18:32 +0000
                                          Re: Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-07 22:43 +0200
                                      Re: Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-07 12:29 -0500
                                      Re: Reciprocal dilation of internal chronotropies (SR) Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-07 16:45 -0400
                                    Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-07 11:01 -0700
                                      Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-07 16:48 -0400
                                        Re: There is no material length contraction Nat Vaikule <nukv@vektnaaa.nv> - 2023-08-07 21:25 +0000
                                          Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-07 15:34 -0700
                                            Re: There is no material length contraction Jarrell Martirosov <ajrr@riilromm.aa> - 2023-08-08 10:03 +0000
                                        Re: There is no material length contraction whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-07 18:01 -0500
                                          Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-10 18:53 -0400
                                            Re: There is no material length contraction Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-10 19:07 -0700
                                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-10 13:20 -0700
                                  Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-10 18:58 -0400
                                    Re: There is no material length contraction Ronaldo Amerhanov <hera@aeladhrd.ma> - 2023-08-12 20:57 +0000
                                    Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 06:07 -0700
                                      Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 09:06 -0700
                                        Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-14 16:21 +0000
                                          Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-14 09:39 -0700
                            Re: There is no material length contraction Ozzie Jakushov <ezhu@ijjhhouv.az> - 2023-08-04 21:35 +0000
                              Re: There is no material length contraction Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 15:58 -0700
                                Re: There is no material length contraction Beraldo Hapy <lhap@aaloyohe.pl> - 2023-08-05 03:00 +0000
                    Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-08 05:30 -0700
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Dalton Dubman <nlat@tualtadd.db> - 2023-08-08 14:02 +0000
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-08 10:45 -0400
                        Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-09 06:48 -0700
                          Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-09 06:58 -0700
                          Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-09 12:31 -0400
                            Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-10 08:38 -0700
                              Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-10 11:56 -0400
                                Re: There is no material length contraction Kaosayn Shakhbazyan <nazs@aoonaaoo.ah> - 2023-08-10 16:30 +0000
          Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 22:12 -0700
            Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-03 16:04 +1000
              Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 00:19 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-03 19:06 +1000
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 02:53 -0700
                    Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-04 08:03 +1000
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 20:23 -0700
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-04 13:22 +0000
              Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-03 01:21 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-03 19:10 +1000
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-03 09:56 +0000
                    Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-03 08:57 -0700
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-03 16:13 +0000
                        Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-03 09:24 -0700
                          Re: There is no material length contraction Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 20:22 +0200
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-03 17:28 +0000
                        Re: There is no material length contraction patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-08-03 10:57 -0700
          Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 04:25 -0700
            Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-01 09:08 -0400
              Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 06:14 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 07:40 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 10:30 -0700
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Shkelqim Jadrennikov <meem@qnoeeooq.ds> - 2023-08-01 20:49 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-01 22:57 -0400
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 06:43 -0700
                    Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-03 14:11 -0400
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 11:38 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction Darling Vavravsky <rlrg@kakkdvyv.lv> - 2023-08-01 20:33 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Chaney Charnolusky <ycck@sarhhnkn.ca> - 2023-08-01 20:59 +0000
            Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-02 08:33 +1000
              Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-01 23:09 +0000
                Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-02 09:15 +1000
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-02 10:17 +0000
                    Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-02 03:23 -0700
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-08-02 11:47 +0000
                        Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-02 05:12 -0700
              Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 16:40 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 16:51 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-08-02 10:57 +1000
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 18:26 -0700
                    Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-01 23:04 -0400
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 21:58 -0700
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-01 21:59 -0700
                Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-01 23:00 -0400
                  Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 11:53 -0700
                    Re: There is no material length contraction Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-03 15:01 -0400
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Moody Vallah <mahv@ohoymldo.lv> - 2023-08-03 19:41 +0000
                      Re: There is no material length contraction Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 13:00 -0700
                    Re: There is no material length contraction James Dzhunkovsky <uskv@mdjjsnue.ze> - 2023-08-03 19:23 +0000
      Re: There is no material length contraction nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-01 11:07 +0200
    Re: There is no material length contraction JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 17:46 -0700
      Re: There is no material length contraction Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-07-31 18:40 -0700
      Re: There is no material length contraction Lamont Bakhmutov <mktk@tomhmtmm.ml> - 2023-08-01 21:10 +0000
        Re: There is no material length contraction Thad Mokrinsky <aonk@yoitaito.rm> - 2023-08-01 21:33 +0000

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#616768

FromRichard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr>
Date2023-08-04 13:22 +0000
Message-ID<3WfklATjbbf4CjjVukCMPAxz6cM@jntp>
In reply to#616739
Le 04/08/2023 à 00:03, Sylvia Else a écrit :

> It predicts the result of observing the ticks through a telescope, and 
> measuring the interval between them. The relativistic Doppler effect 
> formula gives the answer.

> Sylvia.

In current kinematics, there is a longitudinal Doppler effect (for example 
the Doppler effect relating to sounds).
But in relativity, it is difficult to speak of a single Doppler effect, 
because there are two.
There were also two in classical mechanics, but the second effect is so 
weak for low speeds (gamma factor) that it is rightly ignored.
I think (not out of arrogance, but out of love of what is true) that it 
would be better on this point to adopt my terminology.
I call longitudinal relativistic effect the effect of the first degree due 
to spatial anisochrony (or speed of light).
I call INTERNAL relativistic effect the effect of the second degree linked 
to the relativistic factor gamma.
I refute the idea of transverse Doppler effect which leads to confusion.
When I see a rocket arriving at me, its displacement is purely 
longitudinal (cosµ=-1).
It therefore has a longitudinal Doppler effect of the first degree.
But it also has a "transverse" Doppler effect as it does not move 
transversely in any way. The term therefore seems to me liable to 
misinterpretation. I therefore prefer the term INTERNAL Doppler effect.

These two Doppler effects are cumulative.

The object which moves in space will therefore undergo two Doppler effects 
and the residual equations will become for the apparent speeds, for the 
perceived proper durations, for the perceived lengths, and for the 
received wavelengths.
Vapp=Vo/(1+cosµ.Vo/c)
t'=t.(1+cosµ.Vo/c)/sqrt(1-Vo²/c²)
L'=L.sqrt(1-Vo²/c²)/(1+cosµ.Vo/c)
lambda'=lambda.(1+cosµ.Vo/c)/sqrt(1-Vo²/c²)

Notion of relativistic Doppler effects, my love Sylvia.

R.H.

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#616654

Frompatdolan <patdolan@comcast.net>
Date2023-08-03 01:21 -0700
Message-ID<97545b69-8098-41ef-8b90-1f045ccbc547n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#616648
On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:04:23 PM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 01-Aug-23 3:12 pm, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 1 August 2023 at 04:10:22 UTC+2, Sylvia Else wrote: 
> >> On 01-Aug-23 11:38 am, Ken Seto wrote: 
> >>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 8:41:31 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote: 
> >>>> On 01-Aug-23 9:42 am, Ken Seto wrote: 
> >>>>> Einstein invented length contraction to make his Postulate P2 constant light speed in all frames viable. 
> >>>>> Here's how: 
> >>>>> 1. The material length of a meter stick remain constant in all frames. 
> >>>>> 2. Einstein invented length contraction without specifyin what is 
> >>>>> contracting. 
> >>>>> This allowed him to claim that Length contraction along with time dilation 
> >>>>> to give him constant light speed in all frames. 
> >>>>> The real reason why the speed of light is not constant in all frames is as follows: 
> >>>>> 1. The material length of a meter stick remains constant in all frames. 
> >>>>> 2. The light-path-length (LPL)...the length that light must travel to cover the material length of a meter stick .... 
> >>>>> 3. The LPL of the observer's meter stick is 1meter ...the same as its material 
> >>>>> length.. 
> >>>>> 4. The LPL of a meter moving wrt the observer is predicted to be 1/gamma or gamma. 
> >>>>> 5. Einstein assumed that the LPL of the moving meter stick only 1/gamma. and thus all meter stick moving wrt the observer will have LPL 1/gamma. This is wrong. The LPL of a moving meter can be gamma. This means that SR is only half of the story. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>> Indeed, there is no material length contraction. Einstein never said 
> >>>> there was. 
> >>> 
> >>> So what did Einstein said what is contracting? The LPL as I said above? 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Sylvia.
> >> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do 
> >> measurements. That's it. 
> >
> > Is it, lady? 
> > So, if anyone asked your insdane guru: "an observer 
> > moving with c/2 wrt solar system is going to measure 
> > a day. What result do you expect in the name of your 
> > insane physics?" 
> > The answer would be...? 
> 
> Such questions are ill-framed. The observer is moving, so their distance 
> away from the Earth will vary over the course of day, and the time light 
> takes to travel from the Earth to the observer will also vary. 
> 
> So what is an Earth day from the perspective of the observer? Is it the 
> time it takes for the observer to see the Earth rotate once through a 
> powerful telescope? 
> 
> Perhaps you want it to be the time it takes to rotate in the observer's 
> coordinate system, but that has no physical reality, because it's not 
> something that can be measured, even in principle. It represents just 
> part of the mathematical model that the observer can use to calculate 
> the expected length of the day as seen by the observer though their 
> telescope. 
> 
> Sylvia.
Sylvia, 

Where your model of proper & coordinate time betrays itself as useless is when one tries to simultaneously model how massive bodies are attracted to one another when in equilibrium wrt that attraction.  Einstein had to punt on that entire aspect of his theory--it forced him to compartmentalize relativity into two flavors: special and general.  And for a long time, right up until a few months ago, people believed that general relativity did in fact rescue special relativity from falsification by that mutual attraction.  But then the Big Ben Paradox came along and upset everything.  Now it is back to the drawing board for SR if it is to be salvaged for a new generation of students and their textbooks.  As of right now, SR is as wrecked as the supposed "age of the Universe" calculations.

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#616656

FromSylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
Date2023-08-03 19:10 +1000
Message-ID<kj198pFb2gpU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#616654
On 03-Aug-23 6:21 pm, patdolan wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:04:23 PM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 01-Aug-23 3:12 pm, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 1 August 2023 at 04:10:22 UTC+2, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> On 01-Aug-23 11:38 am, Ken Seto wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 8:41:31 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>> On 01-Aug-23 9:42 am, Ken Seto wrote:
>>>>>>> Einstein invented length contraction to make his Postulate P2 constant light speed in all frames viable.
>>>>>>> Here's how:
>>>>>>> 1. The material length of a meter stick remain constant in all frames.
>>>>>>> 2. Einstein invented length contraction without specifyin what is
>>>>>>> contracting.
>>>>>>> This allowed him to claim that Length contraction along with time dilation
>>>>>>> to give him constant light speed in all frames.
>>>>>>> The real reason why the speed of light is not constant in all frames is as follows:
>>>>>>> 1. The material length of a meter stick remains constant in all frames.
>>>>>>> 2. The light-path-length (LPL)...the length that light must travel to cover the material length of a meter stick ....
>>>>>>> 3. The LPL of the observer's meter stick is 1meter ...the same as its material
>>>>>>> length..
>>>>>>> 4. The LPL of a meter moving wrt the observer is predicted to be 1/gamma or gamma.
>>>>>>> 5. Einstein assumed that the LPL of the moving meter stick only 1/gamma. and thus all meter stick moving wrt the observer will have LPL 1/gamma. This is wrong. The LPL of a moving meter can be gamma. This means that SR is only half of the story.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed, there is no material length contraction. Einstein never said
>>>>>> there was.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what did Einstein said what is contracting? The LPL as I said above?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do
>>>> measurements. That's it.
>>>
>>> Is it, lady?
>>> So, if anyone asked your insdane guru: "an observer
>>> moving with c/2 wrt solar system is going to measure
>>> a day. What result do you expect in the name of your
>>> insane physics?"
>>> The answer would be...?
>>
>> Such questions are ill-framed. The observer is moving, so their distance
>> away from the Earth will vary over the course of day, and the time light
>> takes to travel from the Earth to the observer will also vary.
>>
>> So what is an Earth day from the perspective of the observer? Is it the
>> time it takes for the observer to see the Earth rotate once through a
>> powerful telescope?
>>
>> Perhaps you want it to be the time it takes to rotate in the observer's
>> coordinate system, but that has no physical reality, because it's not
>> something that can be measured, even in principle. It represents just
>> part of the mathematical model that the observer can use to calculate
>> the expected length of the day as seen by the observer though their
>> telescope.
>>
>> Sylvia.
> Sylvia,
> 
> Where your model of proper & coordinate time betrays itself as useless is when one tries to simultaneously model how massive bodies are attracted to one another when in equilibrium wrt that attraction.  Einstein had to punt on that entire aspect of his theory--it forced him to compartmentalize relativity into two flavors: special and general.  And for a long time, right up until a few months ago, people believed that general relativity did in fact rescue special relativity from falsification by that mutual attraction.  But then the Big Ben Paradox came along and upset everything.  Now it is back to the drawing board for SR if it is to be salvaged for a new generation of students and their textbooks.  As of right now, SR is as wrecked as the supposed "age of the Universe" calculations.

You seem to think that the Big Ben paradox is a problem. I don't.

Sylvia.

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#616660

FromRichard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr>
Date2023-08-03 09:56 +0000
Message-ID<1dGSEYF97DIbJgWs-9uNz3xlLYs@jntp>
In reply to#616656
Le 03/08/2023 à 11:10, Sylvia Else a écrit :
> On 03-Aug-23 6:21 pm, patdolan wrote:

> You seem to think that the Big Ben paradox is a problem. I don't.
> 
> Sylvia.

Quel est ce problème?

Je ne connais pas ce paradoxe, mais je peux probablement le résoudre en 
quelques secondes si on me l'expose. 

R.H. 

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#616682

Frompatdolan <patdolan@comcast.net>
Date2023-08-03 08:57 -0700
Message-ID<5768a32b-5131-4395-8682-efd2fbf5f815n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#616660
On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:56:37 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
> Le 03/08/2023 à 11:10, Sylvia Else a écrit : 
> > On 03-Aug-23 6:21 pm, patdolan wrote: 
> 
> > You seem to think that the Big Ben paradox is a problem. I don't. 
> > 
> > Sylvia.
> Quel est ce problème? 
> 
> Je ne connais pas ce paradoxe, mais je peux probablement le résoudre en 
> quelques secondes si on me l'expose. 
> 
> R.H.

Voilà, Dr Hachel. S'il vous plaît essayez de résoudre le paradoxe.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/768152/big-ben-paradox

Bonne chance,

Patrice Doleon

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#616683

FromRichard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr>
Date2023-08-03 16:13 +0000
Message-ID<iBXUtbfH3Aq4uVBlewVOTUq8IWg@jntp>
In reply to#616682
Le 03/08/2023 à 17:57, patdolan a écrit :
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:56:37 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
>> Le 03/08/2023 à 11:10, Sylvia Else a écrit : 
>> > On 03-Aug-23 6:21 pm, patdolan wrote: 
>> 
>> > You seem to think that the Big Ben paradox is a problem. I don't. 
>> > 
>> > Sylvia.
>> Quel est ce problème? 
>> 
>> Je ne connais pas ce paradoxe, mais je peux probablement le résoudre en 
>> quelques secondes si on me l'expose. 
>> 
>> R.H.
> 
> Voilà, Dr Hachel. S'il vous plaît essayez de résoudre le paradoxe.
> 
> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/768152/big-ben-paradox
> 
> Bonne chance,
> 
> Patrice Doleon

---
Consider a distant observer traveling at .867 c ( γ=2
 ) relative to the solar system along the line that is collinear with the 
sun's axis of rotation. As the clockwork solar system spins beneath him, 
the distant observer peers through his powerful telescope at Big Ben in 
London. After taking relativistic doppler into account, the distant 
observer measures Big Ben's little hand to make one revolution for every 
two revolutions of his own wristwatch's little hand, in accordance with 
special relativity. He also observes that Big Ben's little hand still 
makes 730.5 revolutions for every revolution that the earth makes around 
the sun. From these two observations the distant observer concludes that 
in his inertial frame of reference the earth's orbital velocity is only 
half the velocity necessary to keep the earth in stable orbit around the 
sun.

Will the earth spiral into the sun? If not, why not?

Note: Newtonian gravity is not assumed in this paradox. Invariant 
spacetime curvature is assumed to be the cause of the earth's orbit.
---

 Merci beaucoup Patrice, je vais traduire ça en français, et je vais 
répondre si je peux. 

 R.H. 

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#616684

Frompatdolan <patdolan@comcast.net>
Date2023-08-03 09:24 -0700
Message-ID<33b89fe5-0025-443f-b3d2-be06c42b40ccn@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#616683
On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:13:52 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
> Le 03/08/2023 à 17:57, patdolan a écrit : 
> > On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:56:37 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote: 
> >> Le 03/08/2023 à 11:10, Sylvia Else a écrit : 
> >> > On 03-Aug-23 6:21 pm, patdolan wrote: 
> >> 
> >> > You seem to think that the Big Ben paradox is a problem. I don't. 
> >> > 
> >> > Sylvia. 
> >> Quel est ce problème? 
> >> 
> >> Je ne connais pas ce paradoxe, mais je peux probablement le résoudre en 
> >> quelques secondes si on me l'expose. 
> >> 
> >> R.H. 
> > 
> > Voilà, Dr Hachel. S'il vous plaît essayez de résoudre le paradoxe. 
> > 
> > https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/768152/big-ben-paradox 
> > 
> > Bonne chance, 
> > 
> > Patrice Doleon
> --- 
> Consider a distant observer traveling at .867 c ( γ=2 
> ) relative to the solar system along the line that is collinear with the 
> sun's axis of rotation. As the clockwork solar system spins beneath him, 
> the distant observer peers through his powerful telescope at Big Ben in 
> London. After taking relativistic doppler into account, the distant 
> observer measures Big Ben's little hand to make one revolution for every 
> two revolutions of his own wristwatch's little hand, in accordance with 
> special relativity. He also observes that Big Ben's little hand still 
> makes 730.5 revolutions for every revolution that the earth makes around 
> the sun. From these two observations the distant observer concludes that 
> in his inertial frame of reference the earth's orbital velocity is only 
> half the velocity necessary to keep the earth in stable orbit around the 
> sun. 
> 
> Will the earth spiral into the sun? If not, why not? 
> 
> Note: Newtonian gravity is not assumed in this paradox. Invariant 
> spacetime curvature is assumed to be the cause of the earth's orbit. 
> --- 
> 
> Merci beaucoup Patrice, je vais traduire ça en français, et je vais 
> répondre si je peux. 
> 
> R.H.
Dr. Hachel, may I suggest that you appeal to the generous spirits of Python and rotchm, who I believe are Frenchman and French Canadian respectively, to translate the Big Ben Paradox a la francias.  They have a command of both the English language and the Big Ben Paradox.  I believe that Athel also has a command of your language and is also a keen student of the BBP.

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#616701

FromAthel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com>
Date2023-08-03 20:22 +0200
Message-ID<kj29isFg5n3U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#616684
On 2023-08-03 16:24:53 +0000, patdolan said:

> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:13:52 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
>> Le 03/08/2023 à 17:57, patdolan a écrit :> > On Thursday, August 3, 
>> 2023 at 2:56:37 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:> >> Le 03/08/2023 à 
>> 11:10, Sylvia Else a écrit :> >> > On 03-Aug-23 6:21 pm, patdolan 
>> wrote:> >>> >> > You seem to think that the Big Ben paradox is a 
>> problem. I don't.> >> >> >> > Sylvia.> >> Quel est ce problème?> >>> >> 
>> Je ne connais pas ce paradoxe, mais je peux probablement le résoudre 
>> en> >> quelques secondes si on me l'expose.> >>> >> R.H.> >> > Voilà, 
>> Dr Hachel. S'il vous plaît essayez de résoudre le paradoxe.> >> > 
>> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/768152/big-ben-paradox> >> 
>> > Bonne chance,> >> > Patrice Doleon
>> ---> Consider a distant observer traveling at .867 c ( γ=2> ) relative 
>> to the solar system along the line that is collinear with the> sun's 
>> axis of rotation. As the clockwork solar system spins beneath him,> the 
>> distant observer peers through his powerful telescope at Big Ben in> 
>> London. After taking relativistic doppler into account, the distant> 
>> observer measures Big Ben's little hand to make one revolution for 
>> every> two revolutions of his own wristwatch's little hand, in 
>> accordance with> special relativity. He also observes that Big Ben's 
>> little hand still> makes 730.5 revolutions for every revolution that 
>> the earth makes around> the sun. From these two observations the 
>> distant observer concludes that> in his inertial frame of reference the 
>> earth's orbital velocity is only> half the velocity necessary to keep 
>> the earth in stable orbit around the> sun.>> Will the earth spiral into 
>> the sun? If not, why not?>> Note: Newtonian gravity is not assumed in 
>> this paradox. Invariant> spacetime curvature is assumed to be the cause 
>> of the earth's orbit.> --->> Merci beaucoup Patrice, je vais traduire 
>> ça en français, et je vais> répondre si je peux.>> R.H.
> Dr. Hachel, may I suggest that you appeal to the generous spirits of 
> Python and rotchm, who I believe are Frenchman and French Canadian 
> respectively, to translate the Big Ben Paradox a la francias.  They 
> have a command of both the English language and the Big Ben Paradox.  I 
> believe that Athel also has a command of your language

command is too strong, but I can make myself understood.

>  and is also a keen student of the BBP.

If you believe that you'll believe anything.

-- 
athel cb : Biochemical Evolution, Garland Science, 2016






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#616687

FromRichard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr>
Date2023-08-03 17:28 +0000
Message-ID<MkmOMbc0elpaNZ_2Db1Fqhw24Qw@jntp>
In reply to#616682
Le 03/08/2023 à 17:57, patdolan a écrit :
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:56:37 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
>> Le 03/08/2023 à 11:10, Sylvia Else a écrit : 
>> > On 03-Aug-23 6:21 pm, patdolan wrote: 
>> 
>> > You seem to think that the Big Ben paradox is a problem. I don't. 
>> > 
>> > Sylvia.
>> Quel est ce problème? 
>> 
>> Je ne connais pas ce paradoxe, mais je peux probablement le résoudre en 
>> quelques secondes si on me l'expose. 
>> 
>> R.H.
> 
> Voilà, Dr Hachel. S'il vous plaît essayez de résoudre le paradoxe.
> 
> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/768152/big-ben-paradox
> 
> Bonne chance,
> 
> Patrice Doleon

If we admit that the rocket passes very far (say a thousand light years 
from the earth) and transversely, we can imagine that it will have time to 
remain transverse long enough to measure the effects of slowing down time 
by 2 for quite a long time.

Moreover, the perimeter of revolution of the earth around the sun will be 
smaller, because if the Oy axis is invariant, everyone knows that the Ox 
axis will be halved.

We will have a period twice as long (it apparently turns less quickly) and 
on a shorter circumference.

These two effects, if they were real, would favor a fall of the body in 
the center of the system.

However, it is quite obvious that it is not because an extraterrestrial 
rocket will pass 1000 light-years from the earth that the earth will 
decide to fall on the sun. It's absurd.

So yes, the earth will appear to rotate half as fast as a period of 
revolution, and on an ellipse a=R and b=R/2.

But that is only an appearance.

Let's take the problem differently. Suppose the rocket is hurtling towards 
the earth at 0.8c. We imagine that the earth's orbit is drawn on a piece 
of paper on the table and the rocket descends from the ceiling towards the 
plane of the orbit drawn.

The rocket does not perceive any contraction of the distances, since it 
approaches the plane without transverse displacement. The orbit is intact.

But on the other hand, terrestrial watches rotate three times faster, and 
the earth rotates three times faster around its orbit.

It is obvious that if it were real, at this speed three times greater, it 
would leave its axis. v'(tang_app)=v(tang).sqrt[(1+v/c)/(1-v/c)]

These are only effects of perspective.

R.H. 

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#616696

Frompatdolan <patdolan@comcast.net>
Date2023-08-03 10:57 -0700
Message-ID<0440225e-b265-4f0a-8822-be59c6c2200cn@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#616687
On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:28:03 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
> Le 03/08/2023 à 17:57, patdolan a écrit :
> > On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:56:37 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote: 
> >> Le 03/08/2023 à 11:10, Sylvia Else a écrit : 
> >> > On 03-Aug-23 6:21 pm, patdolan wrote: 
> >> 
> >> > You seem to think that the Big Ben paradox is a problem. I don't. 
> >> > 
> >> > Sylvia. 
> >> Quel est ce problème? 
> >> 
> >> Je ne connais pas ce paradoxe, mais je peux probablement le résoudre en 
> >> quelques secondes si on me l'expose. 
> >> 
> >> R.H. 
> > 
> > Voilà, Dr Hachel. S'il vous plaît essayez de résoudre le paradoxe. 
> > 
> > https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/768152/big-ben-paradox 
> > 
> > Bonne chance, 
> > 
> > Patrice Doleon
> If we admit that the rocket passes very far (say a thousand light years 
> from the earth) and transversely, we can imagine that it will have time to 
> remain transverse long enough to measure the effects of slowing down time 
> by 2 for quite a long time. 
> 
> Moreover, the perimeter of revolution of the earth around the sun will be 
> smaller, because if the Oy axis is invariant, everyone knows that the Ox 
> axis will be halved. 
> 
> We will have a period twice as long (it apparently turns less quickly) and 
> on a shorter circumference. 
> 
> These two effects, if they were real, would favor a fall of the body in 
> the center of the system. 
> 
> However, it is quite obvious that it is not because an extraterrestrial 
> rocket will pass 1000 light-years from the earth that the earth will 
> decide to fall on the sun. It's absurd. 
> 
> So yes, the earth will appear to rotate half as fast as a period of 
> revolution, and on an ellipse a=R and b=R/2. 
> 
> But that is only an appearance. 
> 
> Let's take the problem differently. Suppose the rocket is hurtling towards 
> the earth at 0.8c. We imagine that the earth's orbit is drawn on a piece 
> of paper on the table and the rocket descends from the ceiling towards the 
> plane of the orbit drawn. 
> 
> The rocket does not perceive any contraction of the distances, since it 
> approaches the plane without transverse displacement. The orbit is intact. 
> 
> But on the other hand, terrestrial watches rotate three times faster, and 
> the earth rotates three times faster around its orbit. 
> 
> It is obvious that if it were real, at this speed three times greater, it 
> would leave its axis. v'(tang_app)=v(tang).sqrt[(1+v/c)/(1-v/c)] 
> 
> These are only effects of perspective. 
> 
> R.H.
Thank you for your insights, Dr. Hachel.  BTW, I notice that your posts to Sylvia continue to demonstrate an increasing warmth of sentiment and, dare I say, romance.  Please keep this forum informed in the event of an engagement and/or nuptials. 

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#616491

FromKen Seto <setoken47@gmail.com>
Date2023-08-01 04:25 -0700
Message-ID<b8524e56-ff85-4d2c-9418-d8b0911f7fc8n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#616456
On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 10:10:22 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 01-Aug-23 11:38 am, Ken Seto wrote: 
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 8:41:31 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote: 
> >> On 01-Aug-23 9:42 am, Ken Seto wrote: 
> >>> Einstein invented length contraction to make his Postulate P2 constant light speed in all frames viable. 
> >>> Here's how: 
> >>> 1. The material length of a meter stick remain constant in all frames. 
> >>> 2. Einstein invented length contraction without specifyin what is 
> >>> contracting. 
> >>> This allowed him to claim that Length contraction along with time dilation 
> >>> to give him constant light speed in all frames. 
> >>> The real reason why the speed of light is not constant in all frames is as follows: 
> >>> 1. The material length of a meter stick remains constant in all frames. 
> >>> 2. The light-path-length (LPL)...the length that light must travel to cover the material length of a meter stick .... 
> >>> 3. The LPL of the observer's meter stick is 1meter ...the same as its material 
> >>> length.. 
> >>> 4. The LPL of a meter moving wrt the observer is predicted to be 1/gamma or gamma. 
> >>> 5. Einstein assumed that the LPL of the moving meter stick only 1/gamma. and thus all meter stick moving wrt the observer will have LPL 1/gamma. This is wrong. The LPL of a moving meter can be gamma. This means that SR is only half of the story. 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >> Indeed, there is no material length contraction. Einstein never said 
> >> there was. 
> > 
> > So what did Einstein said what is contracting? The LPL as I said above? 
> >> 
> >> Sylvia.
> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do 
> measurements. That's it. If you want to interpret the result of certain 
> measurements as meaning that a length has contracted, that's up to you, 
> but it goes beyond the theory, and your interpretation has no observable 
> conse

Ha.....so relativity is a model I think that my model  is better. 
My model:
1. The speed of light is  variable...it depends on the absolute speed of the source and the receiver in  
     the aether.
2  Material length (such as a meter stick) is constant in all frames 
3. The length  light  need to  t ravel to cover the material length  of a meter stick is variable..and this length is identified as LPL. (light path length)
4. The time for light  tio cover the material length of a meter stick is variable.
5. Variable length/variable time = Constant "c"

So you see ......my model is better because it provides explanation why the sped of light is constant in all frames.
> 

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#616498

FromVolney <volney@invalid.invalid>
Date2023-08-01 09:08 -0400
Message-ID<uab058$3lnuo$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#616491
On 8/1/2023 7:25 AM, Ken Seto wrote:
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 10:10:22 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:

>> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do
>> measurements. That's it. If you want to interpret the result of certain
>> measurements as meaning that a length has contracted, that's up to you,
>> but it goes beyond the theory, and your interpretation has no observable
>> conse
> 
> Ha.....so relativity is a model I think that my model  is better.

You don't even have a science model, Stupid Ken, so it's impossible for 
your non-model to be better.

> My model:
> 1. The speed of light is  variable...it depends on the absolute speed of the source and the receiver in
[...]
> So you see ......my model is better because it provides explanation why the sped of light is constant in all frames.

You do realize, don't you, that you just contradicted yourself?

A self-contradictory "model" can't be a scientific model.

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#616500

FromMaciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com>
Date2023-08-01 06:14 -0700
Message-ID<1f38baa9-7118-49a3-8729-38bedff7170dn@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#616498
On Tuesday, 1 August 2023 at 15:08:59 UTC+2, Volney wrote:
> On 8/1/2023 7:25 AM, Ken Seto wrote: 
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 10:10:22 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote: 
> 
> >> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do 
> >> measurements. That's it. If you want to interpret the result of certain 
> >> measurements as meaning that a length has contracted, that's up to you, 
> >> but it goes beyond the theory, and your interpretation has no observable 
> >> conse 
> > 
> > Ha.....so relativity is a model I think that my model is better.
> You don't even have a science model, Stupid Ken, so it's impossible for 
> your non-model to be better.
> > My model: 
> > 1. The speed of light is variable...it depends on the absolute speed of the source and the receiver in
> [...]
> > So you see ......my model is better because it provides explanation why the sped of light is constant in all frames.
> You do realize, don't you, that you just contradicted yourself? 
> 
> A self-contradictory "model" can't be a scientific model.

Of course it can, your Shit is an example.

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#616508

FromKen Seto <setoken47@gmail.com>
Date2023-08-01 07:40 -0700
Message-ID<cbcc7c15-5f3c-45e4-87e1-22c61ccfbcc1n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#616498
On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-4, Volney wrote:
> On 8/1/2023 7:25 AM, Ken Seto wrote: 
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 10:10:22 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote: 
> 
> >> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do 
> >> measurements. That's it. If you want to interpret the result of certain 
> >> measurements as meaning that a length has contracted, that's up to you, 
> >> but it goes beyond the theory, and your interpretation has no observable 
> >> conse 
> > 
> > Ha.....so relativity is a model I think that my model is better.
> You don't even have a science model, Stupid Ken, so it's impossible for 
> your non-model to be better.

Hey idiot.why my model is not a model???
> > My model: 
> > 1. The speed of light is variable...it depends on the absolute speed of the source and the receiver in
> [...]
> > So you see ......my model is better because it provides explanation why the sped of light is constant in all frames.
> You do realize, don't you, that you just contradicted yourself? 
> 
> A self-contradictory "model" can't be a scientific model.

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#616517

From"mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com>
Date2023-08-01 10:30 -0700
Message-ID<b4482df5-54fa-4500-8481-2a0dcb98e29an@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#616508
What could take away atomic length and its fundamental absolute dimensions?
How does speed math do it?

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#616544

FromShkelqim Jadrennikov <meem@qnoeeooq.ds>
Date2023-08-01 20:49 +0000
Message-ID<uabr4l$3nge7$1@paganini.bofh.team>
In reply to#616517
mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:

> What could take away atomic length and its fundamental absolute
> dimensions? How does speed math do it?

you too, a 𝗦𝗺𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗲𝗻𝘀𝗸𝘆 from ukurina by chance?? You talk very 𝗦𝗺𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗲𝗻𝘀𝗸𝘆.

there are no time and spatial dimensions in 𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗻𝘁𝘂𝗺_𝗽𝗵𝘆𝘀𝗶𝗰𝘀. Atoms are 
quantum. You never see an atom, but just imagine it and approximate.

who is your daddy, in physics?

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#616577

FromVolney <volney@invalid.invalid>
Date2023-08-01 22:57 -0400
Message-ID<uacgn3$3umcv$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#616508
On 8/1/2023 10:40 AM, Ken Seto wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-4, Volney wrote:
>> On 8/1/2023 7:25 AM, Ken Seto wrote:
>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 10:10:22 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>
>>>> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do
>>>> measurements. That's it. If you want to interpret the result of certain
>>>> measurements as meaning that a length has contracted, that's up to you,
>>>> but it goes beyond the theory, and your interpretation has no observable
>>>> conse
>>>
>>> Ha.....so relativity is a model I think that my model is better.
>> You don't even have a science model, Stupid Ken, so it's impossible for
>> your non-model to be better.
> 
> Hey idiot.why my model is not a model???

Because you never followed the scientific method.

Because you don't show that you derived any hypothesis from scientific 
observations and evidence.

Because you show no experiments which support your "theory".

Because you don't show your own experimental results when 
testing/developing your "theory".

Because you provide no examples of your "theory" in practice, showing 
others not familiar with it how it works/what happens.

Because you make no predictions for the outcome of experiments from your 
"theory".

Because you don't provide any experiment that, when performed, will 
produce one outcome if your "theory" is correct and another outcome if 
your "theory" is wrong, and ordinary physics is correct. This would 
validate or refute your "theory".

All this is necessary to develop a science model.

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#616673

FromKen Seto <setoken47@gmail.com>
Date2023-08-03 06:43 -0700
Message-ID<6c8c18fc-1de5-47c5-95f6-762925c7b205n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#616577
On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 10:57:42 PM UTC-4, Volney wrote:
> On 8/1/2023 10:40 AM, Ken Seto wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-4, Volney wrote: 
> >> On 8/1/2023 7:25 AM, Ken Seto wrote: 
> >>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 10:10:22 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote: 
> >> 
> >>>> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do 
> >>>> measurements. That's it. If you want to interpret the result of certain 
> >>>> measurements as meaning that a length has contracted, that's up to you, 
> >>>> but it goes beyond the theory, and your interpretation has no observable 
> >>>> conse 
> >>> 
> >>> Ha.....so relativity is a model I think that my model is better. 
> >> You don't even have a science model, Stupid Ken, so it's impossible for 
> >> your non-model to be better. 
> > 
> > Hey idiot.why my model is not a model???
> Because you never followed the scientific method. 
> 
> Because you don't show that you derived any hypothesis from scientific 
> observations and evidence. 
> 
> Because you show no experiments which support your "theory". 
> 
> Because you don't show your own experimental results when 
> testing/developing your "theory". 
> 
> Because you provide no examples of your "theory" in practice, showing 
> others not familiar with it how it works/what happens. 
> 
> Because you make no predictions for the outcome of experiments from your 
> "theory". 
> 
> Because you don't provide any experiment that, when performed, will 
> produce one outcome if your "theory" is correct and another outcome if 
> your "theory" is wrong, and ordinary physics is correct. This would 
> validate or refute your "theory". 
> 
All   these  artificial becauses cause scientists failed to find the simple model that 
could lead to a simple model that can lead to a simple TOE......after 110 years of trying.

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#616698

FromVolney <volney@invalid.invalid>
Date2023-08-03 14:11 -0400
Message-ID<uagqjn$rop6$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#616673
On 8/3/2023 9:43 AM, Ken Seto wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 10:57:42 PM UTC-4, Volney wrote:
>> On 8/1/2023 10:40 AM, Ken Seto wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-4, Volney wrote:
>>>> On 8/1/2023 7:25 AM, Ken Seto wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 10:10:22 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do
>>>>>> measurements. That's it. If you want to interpret the result of certain
>>>>>> measurements as meaning that a length has contracted, that's up to you,
>>>>>> but it goes beyond the theory, and your interpretation has no observable
>>>>>> conse
>>>>>
>>>>> Ha.....so relativity is a model I think that my model is better.
>>>> You don't even have a science model, Stupid Ken, so it's impossible for
>>>> your non-model to be better.
>>>
>>> Hey idiot.why my model is not a model???
>> Because you never followed the scientific method.
>>
>> Because you don't show that you derived any hypothesis from scientific
>> observations and evidence.
>>
>> Because you show no experiments which support your "theory".
>>
>> Because you don't show your own experimental results when
>> testing/developing your "theory".
>>
>> Because you provide no examples of your "theory" in practice, showing
>> others not familiar with it how it works/what happens.
>>
>> Because you make no predictions for the outcome of experiments from your
>> "theory".
>>
>> Because you don't provide any experiment that, when performed, will
>> produce one outcome if your "theory" is correct and another outcome if
>> your "theory" is wrong, and ordinary physics is correct. This would
>> validate or refute your "theory".
>>
> All   these  artificial becauses cause scientists failed to find the simple model that
> could lead to a simple model that can lead to a simple TOE......after 110 years of trying.

No, Stupid Ken. Each of those statements come from the scientific 
method. All scientists need to follow the scientific method if they wish 
to create a valid scientific model.

The lack of a TOE is irrelevant. It just means nobody has discovered a 
valid TOE so far. And apparently any such TOE will not be simple.

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#616706

FromMaciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com>
Date2023-08-03 11:38 -0700
Message-ID<4e692cbd-ce83-4a46-a662-244814812c3an@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#616698
On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 20:11:07 UTC+2, Volney wrote:
> On 8/3/2023 9:43 AM, Ken Seto wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 10:57:42 PM UTC-4, Volney wrote: 
> >> On 8/1/2023 10:40 AM, Ken Seto wrote: 
> >>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-4, Volney wrote: 
> >>>> On 8/1/2023 7:25 AM, Ken Seto wrote: 
> >>>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 10:10:22 PM UTC-4, Sylvia Else wrote: 
> >>>> 
> >>>>>> Relativity is a theoretical model. It tells you what to expect if you do 
> >>>>>> measurements. That's it. If you want to interpret the result of certain 
> >>>>>> measurements as meaning that a length has contracted, that's up to you, 
> >>>>>> but it goes beyond the theory, and your interpretation has no observable 
> >>>>>> conse 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Ha.....so relativity is a model I think that my model is better. 
> >>>> You don't even have a science model, Stupid Ken, so it's impossible for 
> >>>> your non-model to be better. 
> >>> 
> >>> Hey idiot.why my model is not a model??? 
> >> Because you never followed the scientific method. 
> >> 
> >> Because you don't show that you derived any hypothesis from scientific 
> >> observations and evidence. 
> >> 
> >> Because you show no experiments which support your "theory". 
> >> 
> >> Because you don't show your own experimental results when 
> >> testing/developing your "theory". 
> >> 
> >> Because you provide no examples of your "theory" in practice, showing 
> >> others not familiar with it how it works/what happens. 
> >> 
> >> Because you make no predictions for the outcome of experiments from your 
> >> "theory". 
> >> 
> >> Because you don't provide any experiment that, when performed, will 
> >> produce one outcome if your "theory" is correct and another outcome if 
> >> your "theory" is wrong, and ordinary physics is correct. This would 
> >> validate or refute your "theory". 
> >> 
> > All these artificial becauses cause scientists failed to find the simple model that 
> > could lead to a simple model that can lead to a simple TOE......after 110 years of trying.
> No, Stupid Ken. Each of those statements come from the scientific 
> method. All scientists need to follow the scientific method if they wish 
> to create a valid scientific model. 

Only such an idiot can beliave such absurd lies, stupid Mike.
Bur anyway, your Shit is not a valid scientific model.

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