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Re: Octal

From Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Octal
Date 2017-01-31 08:33 -0800
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <kfntw8fdwaj.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <b3336798-7e5f-4e90-ab6e-7fa6e93e5851@googlegroups.com> <kfnlguepmyu.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <edb960f8-e7c2-418f-883a-7a3cbe41d196@googlegroups.com> <kfntw8zigzz.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <e351b912-5aae-4cf8-a9f5-73735f412320@googlegroups.com>

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supercat@casperkitty.com writes:

> On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 1:47:01 AM UTC-6, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>> You think what you like.  I invite anyone who is interested to
>> read the relevant passages in the Standard (essentially unchanged
>> since C90), and in the Rationale document, and draw their own
>> conclusions.  I stand by my statements.
>
> The claimed purpose of the C89 Standard was to describe a language which
> was already in use.
>
> In cases where a specification is supposed to model the behavior of
> things that already exist, but differs from the pre-existing behaviors,
> it's generally for one of a few reasons:
>
>   1. The specification writers' perception of what was being described
>      didn't match the reality, leading to a defective specification.
>
>   2. The specification writers recognized that the actual product had
>      nuances that would be difficult to describe, but would result
>      naturally from a straightforward implementation of the spec.
>
>   3. The specification writers decided that some aspect of the design
>      should be changed, called attention to the fact that other devices
>      (programs in this case) meant to work with the design would no
>      longer do so, and provided sound justification for breaking them.
>
>   4. The specification writers decided that some aspect of the design
>      should be changed in such a fashion that other devices meant to
>      work with the design would no longer do so, but accidentally failed
>      to call attention to that.
>
>   5. The specification writers decided that some aspect of the design
>      should be changed, called attention to the fact that other devices
>      meant to work with the design would no longer do so, but cited
>      justifications which would not withstand any reasonable scrutiny.
>
>   6. The specification writers decided that some aspect of the design
>      should be changed in such a fashion that other devices meant to
>      work with the design would no longer do so, but accidentally failed
>      to call attention to that for fear that people would be opposed to
>      breaking the other devices.
>
> Given how few programmers would have any clue as to why 0x1E-2 would not
> equal 28, I don't think the Standard writers did a good job of calling
> attention to the fact that the rules marked a significant change from
> what existing compilers were doing.
>
> In some places where the Standard deliberately broke existing code, it
> made very clear its intention to do so.  Look, for example, at the
> rationale for making short unsigned values promote as signed.  The authors
> of the Standard noted that it would cause some problems, but expected that
> the number of cases where it causes problems would diminish as more and
> more systems adopted silent-wraparound two's-complement semantics.
>
> By contrast, while it might have been reasonable to allow that existing
> implementations which handle things in a way that couldn't handle 0x1E-2
> could continue to do so, the authors of the Standard offered no reason
> why better compilers which weren't tripped up by such expressions should
> be required to add code to reject them.
>
> The fact that some existing simple implementations handled 0x1E-2 just
> fine before the Standard was written refutes the claimed justification
> that recognizing such constructs would be overly difficult.  The fact
> that existing compilers did NOT accept i+++++j means that such a construct
> is not analogous to the 0x1E-2 which existing compllers accepted.  I
> therefore claim interpretation #3 above is not tenable.
>
> Which of the others would you consider most plausible, or did I miss one?
> Given a choice between saying the authors of the Standard were sloppy in
> some spots versus saying they were jerks, I'd prefer to believe the fomrer.
> Can you offer some alternative?

I see you are up to your old tricks, oversnipping and deliberate
obfuscation so you can shift to a different question.  The
question here is this:  Are the rules for preprocessing numbers
a consequence of sloppy writing or of a deliberate conscious
decision on the part of the standardization committee?  If you
want to think it's a consequence of sloppy writing, that's fine
with me.  I believe it was a deliberate decision of the
committee, and I expect anyone _other than you_ would reach the
same conclusion after reading through the relevant parts of the
Standard and Rationale documents.

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Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 14:08 +0000
  Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 06:19 -0800
    Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 14:58 +0000
      Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 07:07 -0800
        Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 15:22 +0000
          Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 07:37 -0800
            Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 16:24 +0000
              Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 08:30 -0800
              Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 09:10 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 09:35 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 10:47 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:03 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 12:27 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:44 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 13:37 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 16:38 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 17:53 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 20:26 -0600
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 18:48 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 22:20 -0600
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 18:41 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 19:19 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-29 14:52 +1300
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 18:41 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-28 16:54 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 17:44 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:17 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 22:39 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 11:49 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 23:09 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 12:32 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 00:51 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 14:00 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 01:13 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 20:04 -0600
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 18:45 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-29 13:35 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-29 14:49 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-29 15:33 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 12:35 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-13 15:19 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-13 15:32 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-14 12:35 +1300
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-13 15:51 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-13 18:25 -0800
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-01-14 06:21 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-14 14:00 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 23:08 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 23:02 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-13 18:52 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 23:46 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-16 01:46 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-31 08:33 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 17:19 -0800
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 09:39 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 11:02 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 12:13 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 11:41 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:31 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 17:39 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 22:05 +0100
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 12:01 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 20:05 +0000
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-28 11:20 -0800
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 12:01 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 12:30 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 13:51 +0100
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 16:26 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 08:40 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:41 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 18:04 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 19:36 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 19:42 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-29 00:34 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 11:04 -0800
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 12:09 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 16:46 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 00:56 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 17:52 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 11:27 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 12:09 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 08:17 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 17:02 +0000
                Re: Octal Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-12-28 17:25 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 17:45 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:21 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 09:27 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:23 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 11:18 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:19 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 15:54 +0000
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-29 12:57 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 10:01 +1300
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 10:44 +0100
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 17:32 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 17:03 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 16:26 -0600
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 11:31 +1300
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 16:58 -0600
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 11:59 +1300
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 09:00 +1300
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 10:21 +0100
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 01:29 -0800
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 01:29 -0800
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 01:36 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 11:52 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 17:10 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-29 05:52 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 19:51 -0600
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 21:09 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 10:15 +1300
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-29 13:53 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 12:07 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 13:04 +0000
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-30 05:31 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 15:00 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 15:55 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-01 16:00 +0100
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 08:33 +1300
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 09:02 +1300
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 09:38 +1300
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-01-01 13:59 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-01 14:24 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-01 15:51 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 13:09 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-01 16:50 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 14:24 +1300
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-02 01:53 +0100
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 14:15 +1300
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-02 02:28 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 06:24 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 17:53 +0000
                Re: Octal luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 10:01 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 09:57 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 13:50 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 11:09 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 14:46 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 12:28 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 16:01 -0800
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-30 14:48 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 22:51 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 15:20 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 12:34 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 23:40 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 22:12 +0000
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 21:38 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 12:04 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 13:42 +0100
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 08:59 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-29 12:23 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 10:56 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 22:09 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 12:27 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 21:18 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 20:46 +0000
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 20:55 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 14:54 -0600
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 15:44 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 19:39 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 15:04 -0600
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 19:52 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-29 09:36 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 18:02 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 16:17 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-01 16:09 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 20:02 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 12:32 -0800
                Re: Octal Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-29 13:45 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 17:16 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:04 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-02 02:26 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-02 12:35 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-12 23:22 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-13 10:04 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-14 00:45 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:59 -0800
                Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 09:45 -0800
        Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-27 17:14 +0100
          Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 08:23 -0800
            Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 10:37 +0100
              Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 03:07 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 12:25 +0100
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 11:58 +0000
                Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 04:35 -0800
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 17:31 +0000
                Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 09:38 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 15:12 -0600
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 12:01 -0800
              Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:20 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 13:39 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 12:29 +0100
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 22:20 +0100
      Re: Octal Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-12-28 13:02 +0100
        Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 13:30 +0100
        Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 13:25 +0000
  Re: Octal Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2016-12-27 15:19 +0100
    Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 08:37 -0800
      Re: Octal Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2016-12-27 18:43 +0100
        Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:07 -0800
    Re: Octal Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2016-12-27 18:21 +0100
  Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-27 15:28 +0100
  Re: Octal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-27 11:42 -0600

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