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Re: Octal

From Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Octal
Date 2017-01-15 23:46 -0800
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <kfntw8zigzz.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> (permalink)
References (14 earlier) <2e01e7a5-2ba6-412b-8e38-25f25d3f53cd@googlegroups.com> <kfnshp6v2p6.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <b3336798-7e5f-4e90-ab6e-7fa6e93e5851@googlegroups.com> <kfnlguepmyu.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <edb960f8-e7c2-418f-883a-7a3cbe41d196@googlegroups.com>

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supercat@casperkitty.com writes:

> On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:19:27 PM UTC-6, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>> supercat writes:
>>> The rationale for the Standard recognizes that the grammar as
>>> written will reject constructs like 0x1E+2, and offers no real
>>> justification beyond [a concern of the authors that ...]
>>
>> None of that matters to your charge that the standard is the
>> way it is here because it was sloppily written.  Obviously it
>> wasn't.
>
> You and I seem to have different interpretations of the Standard
> writers' conduct.  The authors of the Standard made no effort to
> demonstrate that any useful purpose would be served by having
> compilers reject 0x1E-1 beyond the fact that they didn't want to
> bother trying to formulate rules that would allow such a construct.
> [...]

A typical example of your slipshod logic and flawed reasoning
(and very likely deliberately obfuscational).  First, the
Rationale document merely states or summarizes the thinking that
went into a decision;  it has no need to "demonstrate" anything.
Second, your phrase "beyond the fact that they didn't want to
bother ..." is simply a lie:  that is not a fact, it is your
interpretation of a passage in the Rationale document, which
says nothing like what you say is a "fact".  (For those who want
to check this assertion, the passage is 6.4.8 on page 57 (ie,
page 64 as reported by my PDF viewer).  Third, whatever their
reasoning and how good or bad it was, all the indications are
that it was a deliberate and conscious decision that produced
the result, not sloppy writing.  In fact one need only look at
the writing in question to see that it clearly and precisely
describes a set of character strings that is consistent with
other parts of the Standard and with the comments in the
Rationale document.  Whatever else the writing may be, it
is not sloppy, which pretty severely undercuts the idea that
how the rules turned out was caused by a sloppily written
standard.

> I would regard such failure as prima facie evidence of
> sloppiness.  You apparently think otherwise.

You think what you like.  I invite anyone who is interested to
read the relevant passages in the Standard (essentially unchanged
since C90), and in the Rationale document, and draw their own
conclusions.  I stand by my statements.

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Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 14:08 +0000
  Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 06:19 -0800
    Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 14:58 +0000
      Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 07:07 -0800
        Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 15:22 +0000
          Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 07:37 -0800
            Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 16:24 +0000
              Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 08:30 -0800
              Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 09:10 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 09:35 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 10:47 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:03 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 12:27 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:44 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 13:37 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 16:38 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 17:53 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 20:26 -0600
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 18:48 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 22:20 -0600
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 18:41 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 19:19 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-29 14:52 +1300
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 18:41 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-28 16:54 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 17:44 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:17 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 22:39 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 11:49 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 23:09 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 12:32 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 00:51 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 14:00 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 01:13 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 20:04 -0600
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 18:45 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-29 13:35 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-29 14:49 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-29 15:33 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 12:35 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-13 15:19 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-13 15:32 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-14 12:35 +1300
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-13 15:51 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-13 18:25 -0800
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-01-14 06:21 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-14 14:00 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 23:08 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 23:02 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-13 18:52 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 23:46 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-16 01:46 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-31 08:33 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 17:19 -0800
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 09:39 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 11:02 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 12:13 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 11:41 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:31 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 17:39 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 22:05 +0100
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 12:01 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 20:05 +0000
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-28 11:20 -0800
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 12:01 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 12:30 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 13:51 +0100
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 16:26 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 08:40 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:41 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 18:04 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 19:36 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 19:42 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-29 00:34 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 11:04 -0800
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 12:09 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 16:46 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 00:56 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 17:52 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 11:27 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 12:09 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 08:17 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 17:02 +0000
                Re: Octal Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-12-28 17:25 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 17:45 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:21 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 09:27 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:23 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 11:18 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:19 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 15:54 +0000
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-29 12:57 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 10:01 +1300
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 10:44 +0100
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 17:32 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 17:03 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 16:26 -0600
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 11:31 +1300
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 16:58 -0600
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 11:59 +1300
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 09:00 +1300
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 10:21 +0100
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 01:29 -0800
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 01:29 -0800
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 01:36 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 11:52 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 17:10 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-29 05:52 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 19:51 -0600
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 21:09 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 10:15 +1300
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-29 13:53 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 12:07 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 13:04 +0000
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-30 05:31 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 15:00 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 15:55 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-01 16:00 +0100
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 08:33 +1300
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 09:02 +1300
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 09:38 +1300
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-01-01 13:59 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-01 14:24 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-01 15:51 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 13:09 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-01 16:50 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 14:24 +1300
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-02 01:53 +0100
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 14:15 +1300
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-02 02:28 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 06:24 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 17:53 +0000
                Re: Octal luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 10:01 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 09:57 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 13:50 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 11:09 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 14:46 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 12:28 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 16:01 -0800
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-30 14:48 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 22:51 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 15:20 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 12:34 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 23:40 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 22:12 +0000
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 21:38 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 12:04 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 13:42 +0100
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 08:59 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-29 12:23 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 10:56 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 22:09 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 12:27 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 21:18 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 20:46 +0000
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 20:55 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 14:54 -0600
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 15:44 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 19:39 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 15:04 -0600
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 19:52 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-29 09:36 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 18:02 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 16:17 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-01 16:09 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 20:02 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 12:32 -0800
                Re: Octal Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-29 13:45 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 17:16 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:04 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-02 02:26 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-02 12:35 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-12 23:22 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-13 10:04 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-14 00:45 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:59 -0800
                Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 09:45 -0800
        Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-27 17:14 +0100
          Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 08:23 -0800
            Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 10:37 +0100
              Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 03:07 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 12:25 +0100
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 11:58 +0000
                Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 04:35 -0800
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 17:31 +0000
                Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 09:38 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 15:12 -0600
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 12:01 -0800
              Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:20 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 13:39 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 12:29 +0100
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 22:20 +0100
      Re: Octal Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-12-28 13:02 +0100
        Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 13:30 +0100
        Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 13:25 +0000
  Re: Octal Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2016-12-27 15:19 +0100
    Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 08:37 -0800
      Re: Octal Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2016-12-27 18:43 +0100
        Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:07 -0800
    Re: Octal Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2016-12-27 18:21 +0100
  Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-27 15:28 +0100
  Re: Octal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-27 11:42 -0600

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