Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB

From	Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB
Date	2013-01-19 00:17 -0800
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<kfnlibp8u37.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <0.ee0ca3b7f0127d4ae325.20130116153452GMT.87wqvd9m5f.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <kfnsj619e49.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <kd6tt1$l5$1@speranza.aioe.org> <kfny5fq8fta.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <kdcd4d$10i$1@speranza.aioe.org>

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glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:

> Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>> glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>  
>>> Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>> [snip]
>  
>> Implementations don't get to make that choice.  The volatile
>> keyword is allowed in declaring/defining any variable, and also
>> in type names (eg, casts or compound literals).  Any expression
>> doing an access through a volatile-qualified lvalue is obliged to
>> perform that access under the rules that the Standard gives for
>> the semantics of such accesses.  Implementations don't get to
>> choose which volatile-qualified accesses are "supported" and
>> which ones aren't -- the Standard obliges them to perform them
>> all, and without making any assumptions about what side effects
>> might take place as a result.
>
> I don't say this very often, but that is just dumb.
>
> Except for the case of multithreading, which has been pretty
> much left out of the discussion, only the implementation knows
> which possible accesses need to be protected against, and how
> to protect against them.  [snip]

Probably you are operating under an assumption that is
essentially wrong, namely, that the term 'implementation'
includes things like the operating system and hardware that
the programs will run on.  It doesn't.  

> Volatile pointers and pointers (that aren't volatile) to
> volatile locations also have been pretty much left out of the
> discussion.

Volatile objects that contain pointers are accessed in the same
way that volatile objects containing non-pointers are.

Pointers to volatile locations are covered under the term
'volatile-qualified lvalue', which I already discussed.

>>> Why can't the implementation define exactly what types of
>>> volatile access it allows?
>>  
>> Because it isn't consistent with the requirements that all
>> accesses be performed, and volatile-qualified accesses be
>> performed according to how the Standard describes the semantics
>> for such accesses.
>
> There are way too many different ways to access memory, most of
> which only the implementation can know about.  [snip example]
> Now, say that the implementation has a cache such that, even
> though memory fetch instructions are executed it never actually
> gets to real memory.

Here again you appear to be confused about what is included
under the term 'implementation'.

> Maybe the user need to go to the BIOS setup and turn off
> caching.  Yet you say that the standard understands how to do
> that?

No, I said no such thing.  The Standard explicitly does _not_
specify such things, and in effect requires implementations
not to make any assumptions about what will happen when a
volatile-qualified access is done.


>> [snip]  It's like
>> saying an implementation could define an extension where array
>> indexing only works for even index values -- it cannot, because
>> such an implementation fails to meet the requirements that the
>> Standard otherwise imposes.
>
> Probably a bad example because, with alignment restrictions, 
> implementations can do just that.  The implementation has to
> add the appropriate padding, as required. 

I expect you have misunderstood my example.  I'm not talking about
byte addresses but about the values used in index expressions.  If
we have a declaration like

   int a[10];

then all of these expressions

   a[0], a[1], a[2], a[3], a[4], a[5], a[6], a[7], a[8], a[9]

are necessarily legal expressions, and must designate the
corresponding element of the array a.  Questions about
alignment or padding have no bearing on the issue.

Thread

Pointer Arithmetic & UB Edward Rutherford <edward.p.rutherford79@REMOVETHIS.gmail.com> - 2012-12-10 17:14 +0000
  Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-10 09:35 -0800
  Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-10 12:55 -0500
    Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-10 13:25 -0500
      Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB falk@rahul.net (Edward A. Falk) - 2012-12-11 00:46 +0000
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-10 21:28 -0500
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-12 14:36 -0500
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-12 20:35 +0000
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-12 15:57 -0500
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-12 16:02 -0500
              Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-12 16:13 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-12 21:18 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-12 22:42 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 12:04 +0200
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-17 08:47 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 14:58 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-17 10:59 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 17:26 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-17 19:33 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-20 11:00 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-20 10:03 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-20 22:02 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 13:09 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 22:40 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-21 23:39 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-22 06:50 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-22 00:15 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-22 10:34 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-22 09:32 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-23 09:38 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-23 09:55 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-26 13:35 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-27 09:03 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-27 21:31 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-12-28 01:55 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-29 13:43 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-12-28 01:39 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-28 11:31 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-28 08:47 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-29 17:45 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-30 04:06 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:08 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-26 13:29 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-27 07:55 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-27 08:01 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-27 21:10 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-29 18:03 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-23 03:48 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-23 10:22 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-27 10:34 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-27 10:16 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-10 17:26 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 12:38 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 20:50 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-13 13:07 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-13 22:11 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 11:11 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-12 18:32 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-13 00:34 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 16:40 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-14 00:01 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 19:20 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-14 01:03 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 20:41 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-14 03:19 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 23:36 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 23:43 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-14 13:20 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 20:02 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-15 21:20 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 10:23 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2013-01-15 10:53 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-15 22:39 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-15 22:28 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-15 23:35 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-16 23:38 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-18 09:37 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 10:29 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-15 21:38 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-15 23:57 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-16 15:34 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 11:15 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-16 10:28 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-16 19:09 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2013-01-16 23:26 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-18 10:08 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-18 11:33 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-18 14:00 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2013-01-19 09:10 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-20 13:35 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 20:15 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2013-01-20 21:05 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 09:43 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-18 11:13 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-18 20:59 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-18 16:24 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-19 00:17 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-19 11:22 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-20 14:51 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 00:07 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 10:05 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:19 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 23:20 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 17:48 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2013-01-18 13:13 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-20 12:21 -0600
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-20 13:40 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-20 13:32 -0600
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-20 14:58 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-20 21:54 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2012-12-20 19:49 +0100
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-21 02:38 +0200
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-21 14:33 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 03:18 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 13:16 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 17:57 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 23:52 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 19:47 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 22:54 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-22 03:31 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-22 09:16 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 04:23 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-27 11:07 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-17 02:33 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-17 02:18 -0800
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2012-12-11 11:36 +0100
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-11 10:00 -0800
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 12:11 +0200
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-11 15:27 -0500
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-11 21:09 +0000
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-12 14:30 -0500
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-12 11:42 -0800
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-12 17:12 -0500
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 12:16 +0200
  Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Prathamesh Kulkarni <bilbotheelffriend@gmail.com> - 2012-12-10 12:04 -0800
    Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-10 15:29 -0500
      Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Prathamesh Kulkarni <bilbotheelffriend@gmail.com> - 2012-12-10 12:44 -0800
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Prathamesh Kulkarni <bilbotheelffriend@gmail.com> - 2012-12-10 12:47 -0800
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-10 16:02 -0500
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Prathamesh Kulkarni <bilbotheelffriend@gmail.com> - 2012-12-10 13:08 -0800
              Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-12 14:26 -0500
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Greg Martin <greg@softsprocket.com> - 2012-12-10 14:55 -0800
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Sjouke Burry <s@b> - 2012-12-10 21:18 +0000
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB falk@rahul.net (Edward A. Falk) - 2012-12-11 00:48 +0000
      Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-10 21:01 +0000
      Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-12 14:24 -0500
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-12 14:34 -0600
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-12 20:45 +0000
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-12 15:29 -0600
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-13 02:02 +0000
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-12-17 05:57 -0800
    Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2012-12-10 20:20 -0500

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