Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB

From	glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB
Date	2013-01-16 19:09 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<kd6tt1$l5$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <kfnfw23d3dz.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <0.0bf426eba4b1a107f6a2.20130115213818GMT.87libuazzp.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <kfnhamhblwo.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <0.ee0ca3b7f0127d4ae325.20130116153452GMT.87wqvd9m5f.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <kfnsj619e49.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>

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Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:

(snip)

> Oh, but that's not true.  An object declared volatile may change at
> any time no matter what else the program is doing.  An object not
> declared volatile might "spontaneously" change _only when there is
> an access to a volatile-qualified object_.  Merely _declaring_ a
> volatile object doesn't have any effect on non-volatiles -- only
> accessing one.

(snip)

> What happens when a volatile object is accessed is, by definition,
> outside of what the Standard knows.  An implementation can choose
> to define anything it wants, but when accessing a volatile, it must
> act in accordance with what the Standard stipulates.  Obviously
> the Standard can't document something that it explicitly doesn't
> know about, 

I agree with that one, though in the case of multithreading,
it seems to me that the standard does allow for some possibilities
for variables to change at unusual times.

> and implementations aren't allowed to assume something
> (like what side effects are caused by some volatile access) that
> the Standard deems outside of what they know.  

This is the one I don't agree with. An implementation might,
for example, and as an extension, allow access to I/O registers.
The implementation might, then, document that I/O registers should
be declared volatile, and might even document that no other kinds
of volatile data are supported.

> What constitutes an access to a volatile object is 
> implementation defined, but what happens when a volatile 
> access occurs is not, and cannot be,

Why can't the implementation define exactly what types
of volatile access it allows?

> defined by an implementation, because the Standard specifically
> allows side effects unknown to the implementation to take place,
> and implementations are obliged to proceed under that assumption.

OK, then, the implementation can, as an extension to the standard,
define which types of volatile access it allow and which ones
it doesn't. That would be especially useful for an implementation
that, as an extension, added ways for varaibles to change other
than the usual ones.

--------------------

PL/I has the ABNORMAL attribute, similar to "volatile" in that it 
allows for a variable to change at unexpected times. But then PL/I
has supported multitasking pretty much from the beginning, which 
allows for a way to change a variable that another task can read.

Then again, last time I looked the compilers ignored the attribute.

-- glen

Thread

Pointer Arithmetic & UB Edward Rutherford <edward.p.rutherford79@REMOVETHIS.gmail.com> - 2012-12-10 17:14 +0000
  Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-10 09:35 -0800
  Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-10 12:55 -0500
    Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-10 13:25 -0500
      Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB falk@rahul.net (Edward A. Falk) - 2012-12-11 00:46 +0000
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-10 21:28 -0500
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-12 14:36 -0500
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-12 20:35 +0000
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-12 15:57 -0500
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-12 16:02 -0500
              Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-12 16:13 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-12 21:18 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-12 22:42 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 12:04 +0200
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-17 08:47 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 14:58 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-17 10:59 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 17:26 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-17 19:33 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-20 11:00 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-20 10:03 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-20 22:02 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 13:09 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 22:40 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-21 23:39 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-22 06:50 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-22 00:15 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-22 10:34 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-22 09:32 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-23 09:38 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-23 09:55 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-26 13:35 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-27 09:03 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-27 21:31 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-12-28 01:55 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-29 13:43 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-12-28 01:39 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-28 11:31 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-28 08:47 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-29 17:45 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-30 04:06 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:08 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-26 13:29 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-27 07:55 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-27 08:01 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-27 21:10 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-29 18:03 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-23 03:48 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-23 10:22 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-27 10:34 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-27 10:16 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-10 17:26 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 12:38 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 20:50 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-13 13:07 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-13 22:11 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 11:11 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-12 18:32 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-13 00:34 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 16:40 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-14 00:01 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 19:20 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-14 01:03 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 20:41 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-14 03:19 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 23:36 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 23:43 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-14 13:20 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 20:02 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-15 21:20 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 10:23 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2013-01-15 10:53 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-15 22:39 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-15 22:28 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-15 23:35 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-16 23:38 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-18 09:37 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 10:29 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-15 21:38 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-15 23:57 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-16 15:34 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 11:15 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-16 10:28 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-16 19:09 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2013-01-16 23:26 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-18 10:08 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-18 11:33 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-18 14:00 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2013-01-19 09:10 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-20 13:35 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 20:15 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2013-01-20 21:05 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 09:43 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-18 11:13 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-18 20:59 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-18 16:24 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-19 00:17 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-19 11:22 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-20 14:51 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 00:07 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 10:05 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:19 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 23:20 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 17:48 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2013-01-18 13:13 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-20 12:21 -0600
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-20 13:40 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-20 13:32 -0600
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-20 14:58 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-20 21:54 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2012-12-20 19:49 +0100
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-21 02:38 +0200
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-21 14:33 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 03:18 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 13:16 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 17:57 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 23:52 +0000
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 19:47 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 22:54 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-22 03:31 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-22 09:16 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 04:23 -0500
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-27 11:07 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-17 02:33 -0800
                Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-17 02:18 -0800
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2012-12-11 11:36 +0100
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-11 10:00 -0800
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 12:11 +0200
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-11 15:27 -0500
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-11 21:09 +0000
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-12 14:30 -0500
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-12 11:42 -0800
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-12 17:12 -0500
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 12:16 +0200
  Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Prathamesh Kulkarni <bilbotheelffriend@gmail.com> - 2012-12-10 12:04 -0800
    Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-10 15:29 -0500
      Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Prathamesh Kulkarni <bilbotheelffriend@gmail.com> - 2012-12-10 12:44 -0800
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Prathamesh Kulkarni <bilbotheelffriend@gmail.com> - 2012-12-10 12:47 -0800
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-12-10 16:02 -0500
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Prathamesh Kulkarni <bilbotheelffriend@gmail.com> - 2012-12-10 13:08 -0800
              Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-12 14:26 -0500
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Greg Martin <greg@softsprocket.com> - 2012-12-10 14:55 -0800
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Sjouke Burry <s@b> - 2012-12-10 21:18 +0000
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB falk@rahul.net (Edward A. Falk) - 2012-12-11 00:48 +0000
      Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-10 21:01 +0000
      Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-12-12 14:24 -0500
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-12 14:34 -0600
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-12 20:45 +0000
          Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-12 15:29 -0600
            Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-13 02:02 +0000
        Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-12-17 05:57 -0800
    Re: Pointer Arithmetic & UB pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2012-12-10 20:20 -0500

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