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Re: (OT keyboard input)

From pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry)
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: (OT keyboard input)
Date 2013-01-14 01:34 +0000
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <kcvnav$5m5$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References <gYFHs.3$OX4.0@fx16.fr7> <cxxIs.8669$K84.1572@fx09.fr7> <kcv5o5$u13$1@speranza.aioe.org> <V6GIs.2274$2i7.1926@fx27.fr7>

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In article <V6GIs.2274$2i7.1926@fx27.fr7>, BartC <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
>"Alan Curry" <pacman@kosh.dhis.org> wrote in message
>news:kcv5o5$u13$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>
>> Does any of that stuff work when you telnet or ssh into the Windows box?
>
>It's possible I'm not using the right library for what I want to, which is,
>IMO, extremely basic input and output for a non-graphic display mode, that
>is (in a small way) cross-platform. That is:
>
>o Being able to write text at (row, column) on a screen or console window,
>preferably in a choice of primary colours. (Both sets of curses seem just
>about capable of that)

Cursor positioning and character attributes: yes, those are core
features of curses from the beginning, since they were supported by all
terminals. (Originally the attributes were just bold/underline/inverse/blink,
then colors showed up.)

>
>o Being able to know what keys have been pressed on my keyboard, including
>the various shifts that all computer keyboards have had for decades. I don't
>consider Ctrl+Home to be that esoteric. (What key combo do *you* use to get
>to the beginning of a file? I bet it involves a shift, ctrl or alt key!)

In the editor "vim", the command for "move to beginning of file" is gg.
No shifting necessary! The classic vi command is 1G (i.e. Goto line 1),
which does involve a shift key to generate the G, but the editor doesn't
*know* that you used the shift key. Typing "1g" with caps-lock on would
do the same thing. The editor can't tell the difference. It only knows
that it received an uppercase G (ASCII code 71).

Have you ever used a unix text editor before deciding you needed to make
a new one?

>
>o And being able to do so without the intermediate library taking over my
>machine and/or my program (like SDL, which disables stdout and stderr!)

The one time I tried to run an SDL program it locked up my console
pretty thorougly. I'm not a fan...

>
>Imagine a computer without a network attached, but with a keyboard and basic
>character display. You would surely expect those peripherals to work,
>without having half their capabilities unavailable because the protocols for
>controlling them via a network can't accommodate them.

Imagine also that you've designed a multi-user operating system, and
that you can't take seriously a computer with no network and only a
single keyboard and screen attached. Would you take the time to design
an API to allow convenient access to all of the hardware capabilities,
then hope that enough programs get written or rewritten with the new API
to make it worthwhile? Or just make it emulate a serial terminal so you
can run the thousands of programs you've already got?

Unix vendors during the critical transition period chose the easy option
(the second one). They never created any API for DOS-like text-mode
applications that assume direct access to a local keyboard and monitor.
And it's too late now. The ASCII + ECMA-48 terminal paradigm has its
disadvantages but it's available everywhere, good enough most of the
time, the old users are used to it, and the new users faint instantly at
the sight of text mode so they won't appreciate any improvements to it.

>
>It seems that with Unix, I have to pretend that even the simplest peripheral
>I want to access is at the end of a link, via an interface not updated since
>the 1970s!

Yes, you've got it!

That or go full GUI. Or keep trying to find something in between those two
options, and suffer from the flakiness of the lesser-used libraries.

-- 
Alan Curry

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Thread

Command line arguments "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-10 20:58 +0000
  Re: Command line arguments pu <uselpa.list@gmail.com> - 2013-01-10 22:02 +0100
    Re: Command line arguments pu <uselpa.list@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 14:43 +0100
      Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-11 19:10 +0000
  Re: Command line arguments Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> - 2013-01-10 21:02 +0000
    Re: Command line arguments "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-10 21:34 +0000
      Re: Command line arguments Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2013-01-10 22:02 +0000
      Re: Command line arguments Greg Martin <greg@softsprocket.com> - 2013-01-10 14:13 -0800
        Re: Command line arguments "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-10 22:32 +0000
          Re: Command line arguments Lew Pitcher <lpitcher@teksavvy.com> - 2013-01-10 17:49 -0500
            Re: Command line arguments BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-10 16:05 -0700
              Re: Command line arguments Lew Pitcher <lpitcher@teksavvy.com> - 2013-01-10 18:15 -0500
              Re: Command line arguments JohnF <john@please.see.sig.for.email.com> - 2013-01-11 06:54 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 02:26 -0500
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-11 09:02 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2013-01-11 11:17 -0700
                Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 13:20 -0500
                Re: Command line arguments Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2013-01-11 13:13 -0700
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-11 19:22 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Fred K <fred.l.kleinschmidt@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 14:42 -0800
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 01:22 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-12 01:39 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 03:16 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-12 09:49 -0800
                Re: Command line arguments JohnF <john@please.see.sig.for.email.com> - 2013-01-12 04:14 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-13 20:19 +0200
                Re: Command line arguments JohnF <john@please.see.sig.for.email.com> - 2013-01-14 04:56 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2013-01-22 15:32 -0500
              Re: Command line arguments Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2013-01-22 15:25 -0500
          Re: Command line arguments Fred K <fred.l.kleinschmidt@gmail.com> - 2013-01-10 14:49 -0800
          Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-11 00:11 +0000
          Re: Command line arguments James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-10 21:16 -0500
          Re: Command line arguments Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-01-11 21:25 -0600
      Re: Command line arguments James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-10 21:05 -0500
        Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-10 21:15 -0500
          Re: Command line arguments 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2013-01-11 01:36 -0800
            Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-11 19:33 +0000
              Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 14:57 -0500
              Re: Command line arguments Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-11 14:26 -0600
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-11 20:49 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-11 18:15 -0600
                Re: Command line arguments Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-12 01:11 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 01:38 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 14:57 -0800
                Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-12 18:08 -0500
                Re: Command line arguments Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-13 00:42 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-13 12:31 -0800
                Re: Command line arguments Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-13 04:54 -0600
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-13 12:37 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 15:54 -0500
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-11 21:16 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Greg Martin <greg@softsprocket.com> - 2013-01-11 13:17 -0800
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-11 22:48 +0000
              Re: Command line arguments gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2013-01-11 22:53 +0000
              Re: Command line arguments "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-11 23:46 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-11 18:12 -0600
                Re: Command line arguments Lew Pitcher <lpitcher@teksavvy.com> - 2013-01-11 19:59 -0500
                Re: Command line arguments Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-12 01:32 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-12 02:47 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-12 03:23 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2013-01-11 22:28 -0700
                Re: Command line arguments Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-11 18:54 -0800
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 03:42 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-11 23:18 -0500
                Re: Command line arguments "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-12 12:06 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-12 11:43 -0500
                Re: Command line arguments Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2013-01-12 10:27 -0700
                Re: Command line arguments Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-12 10:22 -0800
                Re: Command line arguments "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-12 20:26 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 20:53 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-12 16:58 -0800
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-13 01:51 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-13 00:27 -0800
                Re: Command line arguments Sjouke Burry <s@b> - 2013-01-14 06:00 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 21:44 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-12 16:10 -0500
                Re: Command line arguments "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-12 21:25 +0000
                Re: Command line arguments pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2013-01-12 22:10 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-13 01:30 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-12 20:47 -0800
                Re: (OT keyboard input) pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2013-01-13 08:46 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-13 03:56 -0600
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-13 12:10 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Lew Pitcher <lpitcher@teksavvy.com> - 2013-01-13 11:21 -0500
                Re: (OT keyboard input) 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2013-01-13 09:43 -0800
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2013-01-13 12:09 -0600
                Re: (OT keyboard input) pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2013-01-13 20:34 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-13 21:58 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Dr Nick <nospam-4@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2013-01-13 22:26 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Greg Martin <greg@softsprocket.com> - 2013-01-13 14:51 -0800
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-13 23:47 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2013-01-14 01:34 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-13 23:53 -0500
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-14 00:26 -0600
                Re: (OT keyboard input) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-14 07:36 -0500
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-14 13:40 -0600
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-14 14:23 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-14 13:36 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-14 09:25 -0500
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-14 21:09 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-14 22:06 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-01-15 08:16 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-15 11:50 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-15 07:53 -0800
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-01-15 20:26 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-15 21:08 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-15 22:19 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-15 20:37 -0500
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-16 02:24 -0600
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-16 04:28 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-16 06:44 -0500
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-16 13:57 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-16 14:32 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-17 00:35 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2013-01-15 23:51 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2013-01-14 21:15 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2013-01-14 21:59 +0000
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Greg Martin <greg@softsprocket.com> - 2013-01-13 10:04 -0800
                Re: (OT keyboard input) Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-01-13 20:09 -0500
      Re: Command line arguments Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-10 23:47 -0800
    Re: Command line arguments Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-13 20:03 +0200
  Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-10 22:30 +0000
  Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-10 18:12 -0500
    Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-10 18:15 -0500
    Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-11 00:16 +0000
  Re: Command line arguments Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-10 15:46 -0800
  Re: Command line arguments Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2013-01-10 17:58 -0700
  Re: Command line arguments Johann Klammer <klammerj@NOSPAM.a1.net> - 2013-01-11 09:26 +0100
  Re: Command line arguments Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-01-11 21:23 -0600
    Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 03:45 +0000
    Re: Command line arguments Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-11 20:52 -0800
      Re: Command line arguments Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-01-11 23:21 -0600
    Re: Command line arguments Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-12 09:52 -0800
  Re: Command line arguments James Dow Allen <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-13 01:22 -0800
    Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 11:11 -0500
      Re: Command line arguments Azazel <azazel@remove.azazel.net> - 2013-01-14 09:26 -0600
        Re: Command line arguments Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 17:08 -0500
          Re: Command line arguments glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 23:13 +0000
        Re: Command line arguments 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2013-01-14 22:11 -0800

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