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Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied)

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"Bernd Paysan" <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:2175391.upJk9XtueH@sunwukong.fritz.box...
> Rod Pemberton wrote:
> > "Bernd Paysan" <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote in message
> > news:10709389.OQkU8GVx6R@sunwukong.fritz.box...
> >> Rod Pemberton wrote:
...

> > I.e., programming this thing requires expert
> > programming skills in C or C++ and use of OpenCL.  Yet, the project is
> > supposedly developing the processor for the novices in the general
> > public and home hobbyists.  Does that really make sense to you?  This
> > combination is doomed.
>
> This is exactly the same combination people use to program big
> supercomputers (ok, add Fortran into that mix ;-).  And if you actually
> bother to read the title of the thread, you see the word "supercomputer"
> in it.
>

If you had bothered to read the title of the thread, you'd see it also says
"your", as in me or you or anyone else.  So, the point remains valid.  It
says "next" too, as if everyone reading or posting here already has a
supercomputer crushing the concrete in their basement ... ;-)

> You misunderstand what sort of "home hobbyist" this device is targetting
> now: Not the people who are in the iPhone 5 queue.  It's more about
> geeks who want a new toy, to learn OpenCL.  Novices in parallel
> computing, not novices in programming.

I see no such "restriction".

Why did you both introduce "home hobbyist" and define what it means?

If you had read the article at the first link, you'd see that Adapteva
doesn't define who uses it as "home hobbyist" either.  It lists
"enthusiasts", "hobbyists", and "developers".  If you've got $99 and buy one
for yourself, you're one of the three.  Your choice.

> >> You deliberately do the best you can to misunderstand people.
> >
> > No, I don't.
>
> Yes, you do.  Whatever word has more than one meaning, you
> always pick the wrong one.

I'm a native speaker of English.  I have a large vocabulary.  I can speak
and write at an advanced level.  So, how can you legitimately say that?  In
a group like this, I prefer to write at a level similar to what would be
spoken, but a bit more fluently, precisely, accurately.

I don't translate to English through an intermediate language.  I don't
mentally process concepts in a non-English language.  Many of your
statements remind me of a few students I once worked with who spoke Chinese
and were learning English.  They had a few pronunciation problems and
problems with pronouns.  You have a few spelling problems and a few
comprehension issues.  I've mentioned one of your misspellings more than a
few times.  They understood the literal meanings of words, but had problems
grasping the concept of the words together, such as a phrase, sentence, or
paragraph.  You do the same, but at a higher, more functional level.  I.e.,
it's less noticeable, but still present.  They mentally translated from
English to Chinese, processed the idea, translated from Chinese back to
English.  Something becomes lost when that's done.  The nuances of English
meaning are glossed over or ignored.  They needed to learn to think in
English.

Actually, talking to you sometimes is a bit like talking to two people: one
who is fairly adept at English, and one who learned English as a second
language.  Do you have someone helping you?

> It's another misunderstanding of you: You absolutely have to
> fill your fab.  For memory makers, it's cut-throat; they have
> been dying like flies in the past years.

What's wrong with making a smaller fab?  It's one way to fill your fab.

> > I.e., what's happening to the semiconductor industry today
> > has all happened before, but for different industries.
>
> Detroit is pretty special, with its combination of American management
> ("outsource everything") and strong unions.  The semiconductor industry
> did something completely different: They separated making and designing.

So did the automotive industry, circa the early 1990's.  Many of them moved
design from Detroit to California, Italy, Taiwan, Korea, China, etc.

> This is very natural, as the semiconductor industry is a "printer"
> industry.  The making is litography, i.e. printing.

You mean lithography, not "litography".  Specifically, it's
photolithography.

> There are some businesses in the printing industry where you need
> the press in-house (newspapers, e.g.), but usually, the design
> (the writing) is separated from the replication (the printing).
>

There you go again with the "lump and dump" - conflating lithography with
photolithography.

Photolithography is too highly specialized to compare it to the printing of
book and newspapers.  Basically, you're conflating a simple process of
placing ink on paper with a complex process such as chemical etching and
vapor deposition of elements, like silicon, gallium, or arsenic, and also
re-classifying the work numerous Electrical Engineers as that of mere
wordsmiths.

> >> Do you expect fabs to become cheap again?
> >
> > It has nothing to do with the cost of the fab.  It has to do with the
> > total cost of the fab versus total cost outsourcing.  The latter is
> > more expensive.
>
> You can make smaller fabs, but these are less efficient - older
> processes, smaller wavers, less output.  The people who have small fabs
> use old equipment and have their niche where this is profitable -
> discretes, small analog components.
>

Small doesn't mean less output.  It depends on your rate of production.
Fast machines and three shifts a day can produce as much as a single shift
plant with large, slow machines.  Most large factories use increased scale
as a replacement for speed, i.e., large, slow machines instead of fewer
smaller, faster machines.

Do you know what a related-rate problem is?

> >> If you can sell enough of your chips to fill your fab,
> >> it is worth the cost.
> >
> > If they can't, they overbuilt.  They should build smaller fabs next
> > time.
>
> With smaller wavers?  The fabs are "overbuild", because there still is a
> big economy of scale there, and the money for the equipment maker comes
> from big companies like Intel, TSMC, and Samsung.  They want really big
> fabs.
>

These machines are all custom.  There is nothing requiring them to be
constructed for large capacities.  A bread baking machine in bread factory
or a sheet glass machine in a glass factory are sometimes over thousands of
feet long and hundreds of feet wide.  But, nothing requires that they be
made that large.  The can be made for whatever size is required.  The
process and machine size are not linked.  It's just a matter of planning,
design, and money.

> > If they don't need the volume that a fab can produce for their own
> > production, they're better off selling it.
>
> Yes, so you finally got it.  That's why they went fabless.

That just indicates they overbuilt.  There is still a financial advantage to
owning your own fab.  They can make them smaller or more efficient, if they
want.


Rod Pemberton

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Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "B.Person" <bruce.person@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 07:16 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 10:44 -0700
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 10:45 -0700
    Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 11:42 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2012-09-28 11:39 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-28 11:44 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-09-29 14:55 -0400
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-29 12:13 -0700
      Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-29 23:13 +0200
        Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-29 17:30 -0700
          Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-29 17:59 -1000
            Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-09-30 13:50 +0000
              Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-10-02 23:53 +1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201210.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-10-03 19:10 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-03 07:41 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. vandys@vsta.org - 2012-10-03 18:06 +0000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:22 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 08:39 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 07:51 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 14:05 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 09:26 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 19:23 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. vandys@vsta.org - 2012-10-05 00:41 +0000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-05 15:43 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. vandys@vsta.org - 2012-10-05 21:14 +0000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-07 17:58 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-10-04 13:40 +1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-03 21:34 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-04 09:49 +0000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-10-10 00:10 +1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 16:42 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 14:01 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 11:43 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-09 09:02 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 15:34 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-09 09:53 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 16:06 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-09 17:00 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 20:54 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-11 19:26 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-12 23:52 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-13 07:56 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 15:06 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-10 01:29 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 15:31 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 14:14 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 21:37 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 15:26 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-10 02:21 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 19:40 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-04 17:07 -0400
        Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-09-29 22:12 -0400
          Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-29 18:38 -1000
          Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-29 23:38 -0700
            Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2012-09-30 11:47 -0700
            Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-02 00:19 -0400
              Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-02 16:06 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-10-05 14:50 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-06 03:14 +0200
          Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-30 16:34 +0200
            Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-01 02:31 -0400
              Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-01 01:27 -0700
              Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-01 16:57 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-02 16:51 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 02:48 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-04 17:47 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-05 00:39 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-06 18:47 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 19:23 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 17:05 -0700
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-01 02:26 -0400
      Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-05 19:45 +0000
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-04 13:22 +0000
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-10-06 02:37 +0200
  Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 01:38 -0700
    Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 20:43 +0100
      Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 20:56 +0100
      Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 16:00 -0400
        Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 21:05 +0100
          Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 16:40 -0400
            Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 23:16 +0100
              Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 00:19 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 18:43 +0100
          Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-09 09:59 +0000
            Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 18:46 +0100
        Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2012-10-10 07:29 +1100
          Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 17:11 -0400
            Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-10 01:11 +0200
              Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 20:46 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-10 14:48 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-10-12 13:35 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 00:01 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-13 20:51 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 17:36 -0400
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-10-12 13:34 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "B.Person" <bruce.person@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 13:35 -0700
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) "B.Person" <bruce.person@gmail.com> - 2012-10-27 08:54 -0700

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