Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied)

From	"Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied)
Date	2012-10-01 02:31 -0400
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<k4bd63$da0$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <k47g06$ntp$1@speranza.aioe.org> <7xmx08hcbz.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <2207084.uDy9Jnq5yQ@sunwukong.fritz.box> <k489je$g36$1@speranza.aioe.org> <10709389.OQkU8GVx6R@sunwukong.fritz.box>

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"Bernd Paysan" <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:10709389.OQkU8GVx6R@sunwukong.fritz.box...
> Rod Pemberton wrote:
...

> And FYI: We are discussion a project that is mostly
> competing with GPGPUs, not at all
> with a typical general purpose microprocessor.

I see nothing in either of the two articles related to "GPGPUs" or GPUs.

So, where do you get that?  Or, why do you think that?

> It's also not using 16 ARM cores.

True.  However, that's an error by the authors of second article, at the
link I posted.  The wording of the first article is not especially clear
that's the case either.  It implies the RISC cores are ARM, not Adapteva's
own RISC cores.  It's poorly phrased.

And, stop ignoring the point.  It's irrelevant if the cores are ARM cores,
or x86 cores, or even 6502 cores.

The point is that it's going to be difficult to maximize usage of the
multiple cores for many tasks.  A novice home user will never be able
accomplish it.  The cores are only programmable in three languages: C, C++,
and something no one knows ...  So, that limits the ability to develop for
the processor even further.  The language no one knows: OpenCL, is C derived
and the only one of the three that supports parallel processing.  This is
even more limiting.  I.e., programming this thing requires expert
programming skills in C or C++ and use of OpenCL.  Yet, the project is
supposedly developing the processor for the novices in the general public
and home hobbyists.  Does that really make sense to you?  This combination
is doomed.

> You deliberately do the best you can to misunderstand people.

No, I don't.

> >> But as Moore's law has an
> >> exponential cost in fabs, they get fewer and fewer.  Therefore,
> >> fabless is the future.
> >
> > Fabless is a _temporary_ solution driven by cost pressures of building
> > a new fab.  No one wants to pay the large upfront cost anymore.
>
> But fabs will become more expensive with every generation.

True and still irrelevant.

> How is that going ot be "temporary"?

No, I expect one or two companies will eventually realize that the entire
industry outsourced their fabs to eliminate the upfront cost of
manufacturing a fab.  They'll also realize that if their competitors are
outsourcing the fab work and if they build and own their own fab, that their
competitors will be at a competitive disadvantage financially.  They'll be
able to generate more profit, since they aren't outsourcing.  Of course, the
nature of financial competition for profit requires a company to not be at a
competitive disadvantage financially relative to their competitors.  Once
they learn that their competition is making more profit by owning their own
fab, they'll be forced to build a fab too or risk going out of business.
Over time, the industry will slowly shift from fabless to owning fabs.

If you don't understand this, you need to read about the American automotive
industry sometime.  They went through the same process.  The cost of
building a manufacturing plant became "astronomical".  They outsourced.
They sold off old plants.  Then, one or two started building plants again to
boost profits and disadvantage their competition.  Now, they're all building
plants.  The plants are smaller, use less labor, use lower cost labor, have
more robotics, are more efficient.  In fact, the automotive industry has
gone through just about everything that has ever happened to any major
industry.  I.e., what's happening to the semiconductor industry today has
all happened before, but for different industries.

> Do you expect fabs to become cheap again?

It has nothing to do with the cost of the fab.  It has to do with the total
cost of the fab versus total cost outsourcing.  The latter is more
expensive.

> If you can sell enough of your chips to fill your fab,
> it is worth the cost.

If they can't, they overbuilt.  They should build smaller fabs next time.

> AMD can't - fab costs are essentially up-front costs, so you have
> to utilize it fully.

So, they pay more.

> Even Intel now started to let others use their
> fab; these projects are still tiny, and probably more about learning how
> to become a fab than to utilizing the fabs completely.  Intel will face
> this problem in future, too.  The output per fab grows faster than the
> total output Intel produces, and once they only need one fab for
> producing all their stuff, they will have to open up.  They better start
> learning now how to do that; Intel is not stupid, they won't risk their
> business by doing it too late.

If they don't need the volume that a fab can produce for their own
production, they're better off selling it.  They can recover more capital
that way.  When opening up production to outside, the plant owner still has
to pay fixed costs and plant operating costs, and labor costs.  When they
sell it, they don't.

Rod Pemberton

Thread

Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "B.Person" <bruce.person@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 07:16 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 10:44 -0700
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 10:45 -0700
    Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 11:42 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2012-09-28 11:39 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-28 11:44 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-09-29 14:55 -0400
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-29 12:13 -0700
      Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-29 23:13 +0200
        Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-29 17:30 -0700
          Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-29 17:59 -1000
            Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-09-30 13:50 +0000
              Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-10-02 23:53 +1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201210.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-10-03 19:10 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-03 07:41 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. vandys@vsta.org - 2012-10-03 18:06 +0000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:22 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 08:39 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 07:51 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 14:05 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 09:26 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 19:23 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. vandys@vsta.org - 2012-10-05 00:41 +0000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-05 15:43 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. vandys@vsta.org - 2012-10-05 21:14 +0000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-07 17:58 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-10-04 13:40 +1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-03 21:34 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-04 09:49 +0000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-10-10 00:10 +1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 16:42 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 14:01 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 11:43 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-09 09:02 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 15:34 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-09 09:53 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 16:06 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-09 17:00 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 20:54 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-11 19:26 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-12 23:52 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-13 07:56 -1000
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 15:06 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-10 01:29 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 15:31 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 14:14 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 21:37 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 15:26 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-10 02:21 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 19:40 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-04 17:07 -0400
        Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-09-29 22:12 -0400
          Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-29 18:38 -1000
          Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-29 23:38 -0700
            Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2012-09-30 11:47 -0700
            Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-02 00:19 -0400
              Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-02 16:06 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-10-05 14:50 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-06 03:14 +0200
          Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-30 16:34 +0200
            Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-01 02:31 -0400
              Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-01 01:27 -0700
              Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-01 16:57 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-02 16:51 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 02:48 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-04 17:47 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-05 00:39 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-06 18:47 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 19:23 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 17:05 -0700
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cmm> - 2012-10-01 02:26 -0400
      Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-05 19:45 +0000
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-04 13:22 +0000
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-10-06 02:37 +0200
  Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 01:38 -0700
    Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 20:43 +0100
      Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 20:56 +0100
      Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 16:00 -0400
        Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 21:05 +0100
          Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 16:40 -0400
            Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-08 23:16 +0100
              Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 00:19 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 18:43 +0100
          Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-09 09:59 +0000
            Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Chris Hinsley <chris.hinsley@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 18:46 +0100
        Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2012-10-10 07:29 +1100
          Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 17:11 -0400
            Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-10 01:11 +0200
              Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 20:46 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-10 14:48 +0200
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-10-12 13:35 -0700
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 00:01 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-13 20:51 -0400
                Re: Your next supercomputer! Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 17:36 -0400
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-10-12 13:34 -0700
  Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip.  (link supplied) "B.Person" <bruce.person@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 13:35 -0700
    Re: Your next supercomputer!  Just $99 for 16 ARM cores on a chip. (link supplied) "B.Person" <bruce.person@gmail.com> - 2012-10-27 08:54 -0700

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