Re: The C Containers Library

From	Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: The C Containers Library
Date	2012-08-07 10:24 +0100
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<jvqmsl$a4i$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
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jacob navia wrote:

> Le 03/08/12 23:31, Rui Maciel a écrit :
>>
>> Again, where do you base your assertion that C++ is in decline since
>> 2003? Do you actually base your assertion on any tangible evidence or did
>> you made that up?
>>
> 
> I would not say that c++ is in "the decline" but there are some
> developments that are noteworthy.
> 
> 1) After several YEARS of work, the creator of the language declares
> that he is unable to add a new feature to the language.
> 
> This means that C++ has become such a complex software construct that
> it is impossible for its creator (Mr Bjarne Stroustrup) to fully
> understand the consequences of a language enhancement. This shows
> us the level of complexity reached by C++.

Could you provide a source for that quote?  Stroustrup, in his FAQ, doesn't 
refer to that.  In fact, there is a section that covers the addition of new 
features to C++, and the only criticism that he makes is that it isn't a 
good idea to add "every feature that someone considers a good idea", and 
that it isn't easy to remove older features from C++.

http://www.stroustrup.com/C++11FAQ.html#what-features

> 2) Undeterred by this fact, the new standard piles up yet another thick
> software layer into the already brittle edifice. Lambdas, and other
> esoteric constructs add more complexity as if increasing the
> number of language constructs and their unforeseen interactions
> was a good thing!

What's wrong with lambdas?  All they do is essentially provide syntactic 
sugar to either define a function object or a simple function.

http://www.stroustrup.com/C++11FAQ.html#lambda

Personally, I find lambdas to be an invaluable addition to the language 
just for a single reason: they'll replace function-like macros in a 
significant number of applications.

<snip/>

> 4) All C++ programmers (besides Bjarne) use a portion of the huge
> language since it is not possible to fit every detail of that into a
> human brain.
> 
> This means that only the overlapping portions of the language can be
> understood by all of them, and a proliferation of "C++ subsets" starts
> that makes communication between programmers more difficult.

I don't see how this can be seen as a problem.  For example, just because we 
have a set of tools in our toolbelt it doesn't mean we should be forced to 
use every single one of them whenever we need to pick up a screw driver.

In addition, I don't see there is a problem if we don't need to use a 
feature provided by the language.  For example, function pointers aren't 
necessarily present in every C program, and not using them isn't exactly a 
problem.  So, why should it be a problem if, with some other programming 
language, a project doesn't use a specific language feature?

> In all my life as a programmer I have tried to keep things SIMPLE.
> That is why I like (and use) the C language. C is a language that
> can be understood in full by a person.
> 
> Yes, I know. You will tell me that the complexity is in the language
> instead of in every program that uses the language and that a complex
> language simplifies programs. Yes, I do KNOW that.
> 
> But there is a point of diminishing returns where you add complexity to
> the language trying to be all things to everyone and you end up with
> being a complexity monster for everyone.
> 
> I know that you like C++ Rui, and I hope you do not feel personally
> attacked since I am talking about a computer (machine) language.
>
> We tend to get attached to languages because of other philosophical
> reasons. For instance the fact that I like small and simple computer
> languages comes from my beliefs that "small is beautiful" from my youth,
> and many other things that are more or less completely irrelevant here.
> 
> Let's try to put all that baggage aside and discuss in a rational
> manner.

I didn't felt personally attacked.  Far from it.  And if, for some reason, I 
was forced to choose which language, between C and C++, would be removed 
from the world, I would gladly keep C around instead of C++.

Yet, just because someone prefers to use C instead of some other language it 
doesn't grant them the right to throw around absurd claims, even if those 
claims are posted to comp.lang.c.  No matter how someone prefers C over C++, 
claims such as "the STL made the syntax for just declaring an array and 
stepping through it too cumbersome" are just blatantly wrong and completely 
detached from reality.  There are plenty of issues that affect each 
language, and we don't help anyone or anything if the only criticism we are 
able to muster comes in the form of made up nonsense.

Rui Maciel

Thread

The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-08 21:53 +0200
  Re: The C Containers Library aftnix <aftnix@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 13:13 -0700
    Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-26 22:31 +0200
      Re: The C Containers Library lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-07-28 17:46 -0400
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 02:05 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-07-30 14:48 -0400
          Re: The C Containers Library Phil Bradby <nospam@nospam.com> - 2012-08-01 21:00 +0000
            Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-01 23:18 +0200
            Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-02 00:48 -0700
              Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-02 07:00 -0400
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-02 13:27 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Quentin Pope <qp19433@hotmail.NOSPAM.com> - 2012-08-02 20:27 +0000
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-02 05:13 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-08-02 14:26 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-08-03 10:47 -0400
        Re: The C Containers Library Noob <root@localhost> - 2012-07-29 09:58 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-30 00:31 -0600
            Re: The C Containers Library Noob <root@localhost> - 2012-07-30 09:45 +0200
              Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-30 02:10 -0700
          Re: The C Containers Library lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-07-30 14:54 -0400
    Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-07-26 16:52 -0400
      Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-26 22:56 +0200
        Re: The C Containers Library pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-26 22:29 +0000
          Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-27 01:50 +0200
            Re: The C Containers Library pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-27 22:28 +0000
          Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-29 06:31 -0700
            Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-30 00:26 -0600
              Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-30 02:21 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-02 02:27 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-08-02 16:43 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library Ansel <lateknightdev@gmail.com> - 2012-08-02 17:07 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-08-03 22:21 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library Ansel <lateknightdev@gmail.com> - 2012-08-03 15:43 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2012-08-04 06:32 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-04 01:52 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-04 22:36 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2012-08-05 08:36 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-05 01:28 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2012-08-05 11:31 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-05 03:48 -0600
            Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-04 03:41 -0700
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-27 01:55 +0200
  Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-26 13:45 -0700
    Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-26 22:53 +0200
      Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-26 18:46 -0700
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-27 10:59 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-07-27 03:39 -0700
          Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-27 11:34 -0700
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-27 11:04 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library W Karas <wkaras@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-27 13:10 -0700
  Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-26 18:54 -0700
    Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-07-27 10:25 -0400
      Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-27 11:28 -0700
        Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-07-27 15:17 -0400
          Re: The C Containers Library wkaras@yahoo.com - 2012-07-27 13:00 -0700
          Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 02:02 +0200
            Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-28 22:08 -0600
              Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 08:46 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-29 07:43 +0000
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 09:59 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-29 06:43 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-29 17:27 +0000
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 20:56 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-30 00:07 +0000
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-30 00:07 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-07-29 11:58 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 22:06 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-29 22:23 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2012-07-30 00:13 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-30 00:13 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-07-30 01:10 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-30 02:57 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-07-30 15:47 +0000
                Re: The C Containers Library Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-07-30 13:01 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-30 04:53 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-07-30 13:04 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-02 02:11 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-02 06:52 -0400
                Re: The C Containers Library James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-02 06:46 -0400
                Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-07-30 00:41 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-30 09:45 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-29 23:05 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-07-29 22:52 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-30 04:56 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-02 02:07 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-30 17:49 +0200
        Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-07-28 09:17 +0100
          Re: The C Containers Library W Karas <wkaras@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-28 15:17 -0700
            Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 11:10 +0100
        Re: The C Containers Library Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-07-28 06:51 -0700
          Re: The C Containers Library Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-07-28 17:23 +0100
            Re: The C Containers Library Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-07-30 13:40 -0700
              Re: The C Containers Library Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2012-07-31 00:24 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2012-07-31 00:05 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-07-31 00:53 +0100
            Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-31 09:24 +0200
            Re: The C Containers Library Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-08-02 14:45 -0700
              Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-08-03 22:31 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-04 00:01 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-08-03 23:45 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-04 22:47 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-04 22:41 -0600
                Re: The C Containers Library Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-08-07 10:24 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-07 15:30 +0200
                Re: The C Containers Library Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-08-07 15:35 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-09-07 12:40 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-09-08 00:07 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-09-07 17:31 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-09-08 03:14 +0100
                Re: The C Containers Library Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-09-08 05:22 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-09-07 12:36 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-08 02:26 -0700
                Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-08 17:25 +0200
            Re: The C Containers Library 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-08-03 16:04 -0700
  Re: The C Containers Library SG <s.gesemann@gmail.com> - 2012-08-04 04:52 -0700
    Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-04 18:42 +0200
      Re: The C Containers Library Ike Naar <ike@faeroes.freeshell.org> - 2012-08-04 19:17 +0000
        Re: The C Containers Library Ike Naar <ike@faeroes.freeshell.org> - 2012-08-04 19:22 +0000
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-04 22:14 +0200
        Re: The C Containers Library jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-05 00:15 +0200
          Re: The C Containers Library Ike Naar <ike@faeroes.freeshell.org> - 2012-08-04 23:13 +0000
            Re: The C Containers Library "Ansel" <tinker454@trytospammenowloser.com> - 2012-08-04 22:53 -0600

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