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Re: CS instead of math?

From Morten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid>
Newsgroups alt.folklore.computers
Subject Re: CS instead of math?
Date 2016-05-26 13:34 +0200
Organization Me, Myself and I
Message-ID <ji3j1d-ep4.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> (permalink)
References <573fb25c.33979790@nntp2.rawbw.com> <td1g1d-df3.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> <20160525093709.101663bfa7590569180382ec@eircom.net> <MPG.31b0a2f99c67187a98a1d6@news.eternal-september.org>

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In article <MPG.31b0a2f99c67187a98a1d6@news.eternal-september.org>,
J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <20160525093709.101663bfa7590569180382ec@eircom.net>, 
>steveo@eircom.net says...
>> 
>> On Wed, 25 May 2016 09:39:09 +0200
>> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>> > In article <20160525074241.4a4fb3a4c269da21e1145157@eircom.net>,
>> > Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> > >On Wed, 25 May 2016 06:56:06 BST
>> > >Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> in 665169 20160524 190052 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> >On 2016-05-22, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> In article <0c7d2fa2-021e-4ae1-b6d6-bc352dfa2a76@googlegroups.com>,
>> > >> >> bert.hutchings@btinternet.com says...
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>> On Saturday, 21 May 2016 01:55:28 UTC+1, Questor  wrote:
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>>> Should high school CS coursework be permitted as a substitute
>> > >> >>>> for mathematics in college entrance requirements?  Discuss.
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>> People who know something about CS, but not very much, usually
>> > >> >>> think that CS is predominantly mathematical.  People who know
>> > >> >>> rather more are aware that CS skills are much more akin to
>> > >> >>> language skills (especially classical) than to math skills.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> And anybody who has had to debug someone else's code knows that
>> > >> >> there's also a strong dose of detective skills.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >That's not CS, that's the real world.  Different universes.
>> > >> 
>> > >> See how a plumber or carpenter gets on debugging code!
>> > >
>> > >	Probably not too well, they don't deal with complex systems,
>> > >	you'll
>> > >do better with just about any kind of engineer - which is why so many of
>> > >them were able to become programmers during the 80s and 90s.
>> > 
>> > All the normal craftspeople/builders (plumbers,electricians,carpenters
>> > etc) are taught to build to code and get it right the first time. This is
>> > such an ingrained part of their training that they are quite alien to the
>> > art of debugging. There aren't supposed to be bugs there at all.
>> 
>> 	Up to a point, the plumber who did the first fix on our house
>> vanished with the job not quite complete (and without collecting his pay).
>> Enough was done that we didn't need to hold anything up there was just more
>> crawlspace work left than there should have been.
>> 
>> 	The fun started when we came to the second fix, and the new plumber
>> and I spent a happy few hours working out exactly what was connected to
>> what and how it had all been intended to be used, this after he had wrapped
>> his head around the thermal store tank being plumbed ass-backwards to a
>> normal hot water tank.
>
>And now imagine that for a hundred-story building.  "Plumbers and 
>electricians don't deal with complex systems".  Yeah.  Right.  Anybody 
>who thinks that has never seen a big wiring closet.

This is not about complexity per se, but about the kind of complexity.

A skyscraper or rail yard wiring closet / room has a lot of complexity, 
but it is well documented before it is built. There are also lots of checks
and balances in the build process, like ohming/analyzing all connections
before they are consiodered delivered. When half the room is built you are
near 50% completion.

Software should be like this too, but never is. 

When the wiring closet takes a brush with physics and has a failure it
is the designers that are in the heat of fixing it. not the electricians.

Not so with software. Unless it blows up really spectacularly.

-- mrr

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Thread

CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-21 00:57 +0000
  Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-20 22:13 -0400
    Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-05-21 11:39 +0000
  Re: CS instead of math? bert <bert.hutchings@btinternet.com> - 2016-05-21 13:23 -0700
    Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 22:36 -0400
      Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-24 18:00 +0000
        Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-24 20:27 +0200
        Re: CS instead of math? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-05-25 06:56 +0100
          Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-25 07:42 +0100
            Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 09:39 +0200
              Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-25 09:37 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-05-25 13:05 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 07:07 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-26 13:34 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 14:02 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 19:46 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-05-26 19:17 -0500
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-27 06:56 -0400
              Re: CS instead of math? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 07:26 -0500
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 14:40 +0200
              Re: CS instead of math? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-05-25 16:19 -0300
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-25 16:15 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 22:29 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-25 21:19 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-05-26 16:34 -0400
          Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 07:04 -0400
            Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-26 13:28 +0200
              Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 14:06 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-26 18:57 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 18:19 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 18:35 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-05-26 22:05 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-27 15:33 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-05-27 15:40 -0300
            Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-26 14:43 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 11:03 -0500
                Re: CS instead of math? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-05-26 16:27 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 17:52 +0100
              Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-26 16:22 -0400
            Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-31 17:27 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-31 20:06 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 21:08 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 07:17 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 05:31 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 11:56 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-01 16:00 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 17:15 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 19:28 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:42 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 13:03 -0700
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:05 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 12:48 -0700
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 17:34 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 07:50 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-02 10:37 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 12:33 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-02 12:08 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 08:17 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Andy Burns <feb2017-usenet@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 09:49 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 12:09 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-02 12:09 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Andy Burns <feb2017-usenet@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 14:09 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Andy Burns <feb2017-usenet@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 14:12 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-02 19:44 -0700
                Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-02 15:02 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 16:44 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 16:43 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 16:42 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-02 16:41 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 22:18 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:42 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 22:03 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 12:47 -0700
              Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 20:58 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 07:29 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 11:59 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:48 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 12:41 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:04 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 07:59 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-02 08:18 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:53 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 12:15 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:42 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-01 13:51 +0000
    Re: CS instead of math? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-05-22 11:27 +0100
      Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 07:21 -0400
        Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-05-22 13:15 +0000
          Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 09:53 -0400
        Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-25 07:18 +0000
          Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 09:42 +0200
            Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-05-25 13:11 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-25 16:15 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-25 22:31 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-05-26 11:23 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-26 11:37 +0100
              Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-26 17:56 +0000
            Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-05-26 16:36 -0400
              Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 19:51 -0400
          Re: CS instead of math? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-05-25 07:43 -0500
            Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-26 17:55 +0000
          Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 07:14 -0400
            Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-27 17:40 +0000
              Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-27 18:46 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-05-31 17:28 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-31 16:09 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 21:07 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 08:58 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 05:48 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 12:06 +0200
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:46 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-06-03 16:05 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 20:49 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-06-04 22:29 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 12:27 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:07 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-02 08:12 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:56 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-03 09:17 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 13:20 -0700
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:10 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-02 17:58 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-06-02 13:57 -0500
                Re: CS instead of math? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-06-02 17:43 -0300
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 20:08 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-02 17:58 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 20:05 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-03 10:38 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-03 11:41 +0100
                Re: CS instead of math? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-09 05:49 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 19:58 -0400
                Re: CS instead of math? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-06-17 03:35 +0000
                Re: CS instead of math? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-02 19:47 -0700

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