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Re: What's wrong with "national health care"?

Subject	Re: What's wrong with "national health care"?
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
References	(4 earlier) <of874l$pa0$1@dont-email.me> <of9r6k$s4$1@gioia.aioe.org> <of9uuh$drr$1@dont-email.me> <z40SA.41105$Ps3.12798@fx44.am4> <ofanuc$qor$1@dont-email.me>
From	Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID	<eo6SA.108390$kY3.37194@fx47.am4> (permalink)
Organization	virginmedia.com
Date	2017-05-15 01:12 +0100

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On 15/05/17 00:10, Don Y wrote:
> On 5/14/2017 10:02 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:

>>>> It may well stop when Brexit goes horribly pear shaped.
>>>
>>> Why?  Because Brits would want to retain access to foreign providers?
>>
>> Lots of British have retired to the Spanish
>> Mediterranean coast.
>
> But did they do that because it is more affordable (stretch your
> retirement dollars)?  Or, because they are anticipating increased
> need for health care in their "advanced years"?  E.g., many retire
> to Mexico and south american countries, here, to stretch their
> retirement dollars *and* avail themselves of more affordable
> health care.  E.g., IN HOME care for less than an office visit
> in the States.

Warmer, cheaper, all the obvious reasons.


>>> Is "private health insurance" a sort of "coinsurance"?  E.g., the NHS
>>> is billed for the "basic" care you might receive and the private insurance
>>> picks up the costs that aren't covered by the NHS?  I.e., can a hospital
>>> stay result in THREE bills being issued:
>>> - to the NHS for "basic services"
>>> - to the private insurer for services above those
>>> - to the patient for services "not covered"
>>
>> It is not co-insurance. All sane people use private
>> health insurance as a "top up", relying on the NHS
>> for all basic important services. The insurance clauses
>> often reflect that.
>
> I'm seeing a discrepancy between your comments and Martin's,
> elsewhere.  Perhaps some of it has to do with nomenclature?
 >
 > He indicated that "private" was a parallel system.  I.e.,
 > you were treated under NHS *or* your private provider.
 > Yet, your comments here suggest that it acts as a
 > "supplemental insurance" -- let the NHS cover the basic
 > portion of your care and then pass the remaining costs on
 > to the private coverage (so you get sponge baths with
 > WARM water instead of COLD!)


You can, and people do, "dip in and out" of the
NHS "at will". The NHS treatment is free "at the
point of delivery", the private has to be paid for
either by your cash or by cash from your insurance.

For example, my PCa...

Initial discovery, diagnosis, options all done on
the NHS very well. As a sanity check I paid privately
for a third opinion by a surgeon whose name is in
the NICE guidance. I chose to get that surgeon to
do the surgery on the NHS, "free"; he recommended I
use the NHS rather than pay him to do the surgery.

My close family has had analogous experiences with
other "ailments".


>> Few people have their own private health insurance;
>> companies can offer it as a "perk", but that's because
>> the companies would like to be able to schedule healthcare
>> appointments around the employee's work schedule.
>
> Is that benefit treated (taxed) as income?  VAT?  Does
> the employer get to deduct it from taxable income?  I.e.,
> does it effectively steer dollars away from your NHS?

ISTR yes w.r.t. tax, and no w.r.t steering resources.


>>> The fear mongers, here, tell us that universal health care will result in
>>> rationing, death panels, people DYING because they have been denied care
>>> (and, amusingly, acting as if none of these things happen with PRIVATE
>>> health insurance!).
>>
>> And continue to waffle/deny that when it is
>> repeatedly pointed out to them!
>>
>> We can fire politicians; we can't fire CEOs
>> and shareholders.
>
> Sorry for my being persistent/stubborn/cynical.  I just can't see how
> there can be NO "rationing", denial of service, etc.  Its foolish NOT
> to place limits on these resources -- esp as they are so costly.
>
> Perhaps I've been spending too much time discussing "disaster
> preparedness" with colleagues (where, clearly, planning assumes
> resources will be SEVERELY overstressed)...

Of course. There is continual agonising over that.

But you have to remember that the NHS much closer to
people's hearts and minds than religion. In fact it isn't
far off a religion, as celebrated in the 2012 Olympic
opening ceremony!


>>> What's to stop
>>> a new provider coming to town and eating into the "market" of an established
>>> provider?  etc.
>>
>> Nothing. Cherry-picking happens; sometimes the
>> contracts are "handed back" to the NHS when the
>> over-optimistic prices mean the private sector
>> can't make a profit.
>
> So, CorporationX enters into a contractual arrangement with the NHS
> to provide coverage by building/staffing a bunch of "surgeries" in
> western Liverpool.  Then, realizes they can't make money doing so
> based on their initial estimates of the market, there.
>
> Rather than declare bankruptcy to weasel out of their contract(s),
> they exercise some other option to get out of their contractual
> obligations (and the NHS *lets* them do this??).  Then, those
> surgeries get boarded up while the NHS scurries to find someone
> else to take over that contract?  What happens to patients in
> those areas in that transition?

God knows. All the politicians care about is that they
spend less money in the short term. Given that, any competent
lawyer/businessman can ensure that they can fold and walk
away from a contract - all they have to do is declare
bankruptcy.


> Does everyone suddenly find themselves with a new doctor and/or
> different address to present for treatment?

One hopes so, but the politicians are doing a good job
of pissing off the medics in general - and they refuse
to discuss the effect Brexit will have, shudder.

It has only recently become an issue with GPs, so there
isn't yet much public awareness about how it works.

Thread

What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 15:10 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-05-13 22:54 +0000
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 15:59 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 00:34 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:11 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 08:49 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 02:00 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:14 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 08:31 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 15:56 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 09:04 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:02 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 16:10 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 01:12 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:57 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-18 10:42 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 14:10 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 10:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 15:48 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 13:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:47 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 15:40 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 00:03 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:39 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 08:09 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-05-18 09:13 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 09:37 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 04:57 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:58 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-17 08:21 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 13:28 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:13 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 10:14 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 13:31 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 19:17 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 17:47 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 23:45 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-19 19:57 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 23:35 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-20 07:42 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-20 00:48 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 09:24 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 12:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 17:44 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 16:49 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:29 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 19:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 11:32 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 01:16 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:04 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-24 07:40 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-05-31 11:57 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 09:05 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-20 05:12 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 21:07 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-23 19:04 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:46 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-24 12:56 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 12:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:12 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-24 16:11 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 19:49 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-26 15:41 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:44 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:18 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:54 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 23:00 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 15:32 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 15:01 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 00:52 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-05-15 19:17 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:26 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:01 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 21:12 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 13:51 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 20:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 15:50 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:27 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 22:00 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-05-14 18:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 16:20 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:05 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 17:49 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-13 18:02 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:25 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:28 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 19:39 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:05 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 20:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 18:19 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 21:53 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:18 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 12:51 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-20 11:54 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-20 12:05 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-22 08:58 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-22 11:58 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:29 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:06 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:38 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:44 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-05-13 17:35 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 17:56 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:00 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:11 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:29 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:47 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 22:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 19:56 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:08 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 21:20 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:02 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:16 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:02 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 15:58 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-14 09:19 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:29 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:40 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:04 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-14 11:12 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 12:23 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-14 10:55 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:32 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 20:44 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:03 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-13 20:17 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 20:57 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 08:55 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 08:11 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 14:25 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:54 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 09:09 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:43 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 00:05 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 19:30 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-05-13 16:32 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:00 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 16:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:18 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 17:31 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:36 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 20:58 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:40 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 12:58 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:35 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:17 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:04 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:27 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 19:49 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:27 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:13 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 18:53 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:16 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 19:43 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:52 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-17 18:23 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:59 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:47 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-05-13 20:06 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? mrdarrett@gmail.com - 2017-05-17 12:53 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 13:33 +1000
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 23:53 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:11 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:24 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 20:39 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:16 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:29 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:58 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 21:04 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:10 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 14:29 +1000
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 00:48 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 00:13 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:10 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 09:44 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 12:34 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 09:34 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 09:03 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 12:36 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 14:12 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 14:36 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 17:43 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 18:01 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 15:18 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 19:39 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-19 09:22 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 13:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-19 17:51 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-22 11:30 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-22 12:32 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-23 10:58 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 17:09 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-23 14:30 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-24 13:30 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 13:01 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-26 15:43 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:13 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-19 07:50 +1000
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 20:03 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 20:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> - 2017-05-14 12:19 +0800
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 22:08 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 22:20 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 18:10 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:31 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:28 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:53 +0100
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:30 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:17 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 11:49 +0100
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 12:56 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-19 18:05 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-20 08:36 +0100
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-20 15:58 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 10:21 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-23 13:26 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 17:41 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:37 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 00:45 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:52 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 00:52 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 15:16 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 08:08 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:33 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:50 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 01:32 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 08:05 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:19 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-25 08:57 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 11:49 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-25 18:04 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 13:15 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:15 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:28 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 04:40 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-05-31 06:19 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-31 18:08 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-25 18:30 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-25 13:15 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:54 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 12:23 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 13:44 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 13:47 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-24 00:18 +0000
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-24 00:24 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-24 09:20 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 12:38 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-06-24 12:11 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-24 13:04 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-06-29 14:20 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-29 15:37 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-06-30 11:05 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-30 08:13 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-06-30 12:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-06-30 03:43 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 21:07 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 18:59 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-26 22:17 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-27 09:37 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-27 09:30 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-27 18:23 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-26 08:47 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 13:43 -0700

csiph-web