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Re: Classical entanglement.

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On 28/06/2016 10:42 PM, Y wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 9:46:27 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 28/06/2016 9:00 PM, Y wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 8:23:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 28/06/2016 7:59 PM, Y wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 7:48:36 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/06/2016 5:08 PM, Maciej Woźniak wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Użytkownik "Sylvia Else"  napisał w wiadomości grup
>>>>>>> dyskusyjnych:dte37tFo8jeU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> |This is predicted by the theory, and is born out in
>>>>>>> experiments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :) Both?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. The experimental results are as predicted by the
>>>>>> theory, and neither can be described by a local model.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sylvia. This isn't a local model. A has no local relations
>>>>> or effects with B. They're separated by a lead plate.
>>>>>
>>>>> -y
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's not what local model means. After the peas interact at
>>>> the intersection point, each pea has a definite velocity and
>>>> spin, and Alice and Bob measure those independently of each
>>>> other. All the information required to determine the values
>>>> that Alice will measure is contained within Alice's pea. When
>>>> Alice performs her measurements, she is at the same place as
>>>> the pea. Her measurements are local.
>>>>
>>>> The same applies to Bob and his pea. So the model of the
>>>> behaviour involves only local interactions between the peas and
>>>> the person doing the measuring.
>>>>
>>>> Now, it might have been thought that the same thing would be
>>>> true when the experiment is done using particles. The theory
>>>> that each particle contains the information required to
>>>> determine the results of measurements performed on that
>>>> particle (i.e. a local model) constrains the possible results,
>>>> and the actual results violate the constraint. The theory is
>>>> falsified - it's wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia.
>>>
>>> Hmm, I'm getting the impression that you aren't fully aware of
>>> the meaning of locality with respect to these types of
>>> entanglement experiments.
>>>
>>> Essentially, locality regards interactions. i.e.
>>>
>>> "To exert an influence, something, such as a wave or particle,
>>> must travel through the space between the two points, to carry
>>> the influence."
>>>
>>> Now that is clearly not the case between A and B. A and B are
>>> not exerting influences upon eachother "locally" during their
>>> respective measures of the spin in this setup.
>>>
>>> They might in a very negligible way be influencing the motion of
>>> the ball spin, by rebounding signals from it during the
>>> observation. What is different in a quantum system, is that the
>>> act of observation is not negligible, and forces an elementary
>>> particle into a particular state.
>>>
>>> So there are no locally "hidden" variables here Sylvia. There is
>>> no "hidden" communication happening directly between Alice and
>>> Bob causing their outcomes to be correlated.
>>
>> It doesn't matter what the measurements do to the particles. It's
>> the measurement outcomes, whatever they are, that show the
>> non-locality, because those outcomes are correlated in a way that
>> cannot possibly be the result of purely local interactions.
>
>
> Which is exactly what happens in this apparatus. The correlations
> that A and B find, are not the outcome of local interactions between
> A and B. A and B have no knowledge at all of any interaction between
> the balls. Yet, they measure the same or opposite outcomes.
>
> -y
>
>
>
>
>
>

We have an experiment were the peas come out of the pea shooters with 
known momentum and angular momentum, interact where they intersect, and 
then have their momentum and angular momentum measured respectively by 
Alice and Bob.

The results are then compared, and found to be correlated on the basis 
of the known initial conditions and the requirements that momentum and 
angular momentum be conserved. If the peas come out of the pea shooter 
with zero angular momentum, then the angular momentum measurements of 
Alice and Bob will be found to be equal and opposite.

This is described by a local model - each pea has a momentum and angular 
momentum that can be measured by an observer colocated with the pea - 
this is, Alice and Bob measure their respective peas when they arrive.

I really have difficulty understanding why you think this has any 
significance.

Sylvia.

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Thread

Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-27 04:52 -0700
  Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-27 22:01 +1000
    Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-27 05:02 -0700
      Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-27 22:17 +1000
        Re: Classical entanglement. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-06-27 06:25 -0700
    Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-27 05:13 -0700
      Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-27 22:28 +1000
        Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-27 05:40 -0700
          Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-28 11:46 +1000
            Re: Classical entanglement. Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-28 09:08 +0200
              Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-28 19:48 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-28 02:59 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-28 20:23 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-28 04:00 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-28 21:46 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-28 05:42 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-29 11:58 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-28 21:11 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-29 14:24 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-29 04:24 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-29 22:03 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-29 06:15 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-30 11:28 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-29 19:13 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-30 12:34 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-29 20:02 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-30 14:12 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-29 21:38 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-30 14:49 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-30 08:11 -0500
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-30 11:57 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-07-01 12:34 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 07:42 -0500
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-01 07:55 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 10:15 -0500
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-01 08:43 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-01 09:09 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 13:29 -0500
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-01 17:56 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-02 08:35 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 11:08 -0500
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-04 10:07 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 12:57 -0500
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-07-02 12:55 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2016-07-02 00:06 -0500
                Re: Classical entanglement. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-29 20:00 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-28 12:52 +0200
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-28 21:47 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-06-28 15:19 +0200
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-29 11:59 +1000
                Re: Classical entanglement. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-06-29 06:15 -0700
                Re: Classical entanglement. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-06-30 11:48 +1000
  Re: Classical entanglement. astrofoton@interia.pl - 2016-07-02 12:06 -0700

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